What Are You Leaving Behind?

In the last of a four-part series on travel, Jorden and Kimberly finish out their journey, considering sustainable means of travel by focusing on the choices we make once we’ve arrived at our destination. They explore how supporting local businesses, opting for hostels or sleeper trains, and even simple decisions like how we handle laundry or sunscreen can make a meaningful difference for communities and ecosystems. Kimberly shares practical tips from years of international travel—like why letting locals handle your laundry may save water and support economies while Jorden emphasizes the power of spending money directly with small vendors instead of global chains.

The conversation also highlights the hidden sustainability benefits of hostels, the allure of legendary train journeys like the Orient Express, and why reef-safe sunscreen is more than just a buzzword phrase. From intentional packing, minimizing waste, and balancing convenience with long-term environmental impact, the last travel installment considers how slowing down, traveling with purpose, and prioritizing local connections can turn vacations into richer and more sustainable experiences.

Recommended Resources

• World Bank ⁠tourism⁠ data

• More World Bank ⁠visitor⁠ data

• ⁠Hosteling⁠ in Europe

• Amazing ⁠Southeast Asia⁠ and ⁠India⁠ train trips

• The ⁠importance⁠ of ⁠reef-safe sunscreen⁠ and ⁠comparisons⁠

• Kimberly’s Substack ⁠newsletter post⁠

Episode Transcript

Kimberly

Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist Kimbery Weir and my co host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues. Hi, Jordan.

Jorden

Hi, Kimberly. Thanks for joining me today. So we've made it through the airport chaos, we're landed, and now it's time to actually enjoy the trip. But international vacations don't just carry emissions from the travel. What we do once we arrive matters just as much. From where we stay to what we bring and buy, we're diving into the on the ground choices that shape whether our travel dollars help or harm the places we visit today. So, Kimber, once you've arrived at your destination, what do you think is the most underrated sustainability choice people can make while on vacation?

Kimberly

Well, since we'll be talking about what to take with us in this segment, I say that that can have a big impact about how sustainable someone can be while they're traveling and at their destination. But if we're talking specifically about being in country, I'd say be as respectful as possible to the sites that people that, you know, you visit. That's the same what we talked about in the domestic episode with the Leave no Trace and that principle carries anywhere to the respect to the sites and the people, you know, locals that and also opt for locally produced goods when possible. Right. The sort of same thing we talked about with souvenirs in the domestic episode, that they make for better souvenirs. They support the local economy. And this might sound really strange, but also for local services, like, it's better to pay the accommodation to do your laundry for you to have, like if you're in a developing country especially. But this also applies to global north countries to have your laundry done because if you hand wash it yourself, you're going to invariably use more water. And so when possible, some people don't want, you know, like to give up their undergarments. Okay, so whatever. But you know, wearing, you know, washing other clothes, it's, it's a lot goes, you go through a lot more water than a wash cycle would. But especially in developing countries in rural areas, like, they can use this money in the economy and they'll use less water, your clothes will look better, no question. Like, especially linens and cottons. And invariably they're probably likely to iron them as well. They're going to come out better looking and then it gives you more time to enjoy your trip instead of worrying about like basically doing house duties while you're traveling. So I would say that that's One of the things I especially picked up while I was traveling.

Jorden

Yeah, no, I really. I really like that. That tip because you. You almost think about it. It's one of those things where it sounds like I'm making somebody do my laundry. Right. But, like, as you pointed out, it's actually now being done in a big batch with a bunch of other people's laundry. The fact that you're helping with that employment. Right. Which I guess gets to. My thing, I think about traveling is I want to spend my money as far away from a chain or an international company. There's nothing really wrong with them in the sense that they're still employing. But, like, when I think it's going to sound silly, but just like at a basic economic principle, like the, like the closer to the kind of base of an economy you're spending the money, the longer that money will circulate in the economy and have a bigger impact. So that's like, really what I'm driving for there is that, you know, eating at a small food stand, you know, over a subway that's in every country now, right. Or while it's fun to try the McDonald's burger of the specific country you're in, it's better to go to a small restaurant. And honestly, one of my biggest travel tips is like, look for food stands and restaurants that have lineups of local people. You're. You're going to get some of the best food you've ever had. You're not going to get sick from it, typically. And that money is making a bigger impact, definitely.

Kimberly

I mean, all that money that's repatriated back to the home, you know, country headquarters of whatever franchise and so forth. That's definitely. And that's not to say that, I mean, there are locals who are employed at McDonald's, and McDonald's was always, for the longest time, like my go to. But you knew they had clean bathrooms no matter where in the world you were. But no, I definitely agree with you. And I think it's really an important point is make sure people are lined up and they are locals, because that's gonna. And also, just don't eat anywhere, you know, because that's not a good tip. E. You know, like, if stuff looks like it's been sitting out for a long time, don't eat it. Just be careful with street. Street food. But definitely, I think that's a good tip, too. I think, like, as we talked about with international travel in the first segment of this episode, in 2024, tourism accounted for about 10% of the global economy. So almost $11 trillion was, was going into the global GDP like hundreds of millions of jobs, one out of every 10 job almost in the supported by the tourism industry. And so when we look that on top of what international visitors are spending almost $2 trillion, we're talking about like a big impact that people who are traveling have. Yeah.

Jorden

And as we, as we were saying, this is still a relatively small part of the, the global like it's, it's a large part of the global economy in terms of actual impact, but in terms of the, you know, global population that's driving this or engaging in it. Still relatively small and only projected to grow over the next century as more countries move into that middle Inc. And like I think that will increasingly seeing see it take up a larger share of the economy but also increasingly drive more and more sustainability challenges.

Kimberly

And I think that, you know, one of the things too that goes along with where are we staying? It's again, you know, at the risk of repeating what we actually talked about, you know, go back and listen to the domestic episode and you'll hear a lot of what we already talked about regarding the, the issues with hotels versus local places and so forth. And so moving beyond those in the vacation rentals and resorts and camping that we talked about in that segment of the big giant travel episodes that we're doing here series on travel with Jordan and Kimberly. Since the sustainability issues are similar, we thought we'd actually focus on what are some of the other options. And in my mind, one of them is particularly European. Right. I mean when you think of hostels, do you think not think of like backpacking through Europe?

Jorden

Well, I have not actually done a European backpacking trip. So when I think of hostels, I think of China, which is where I used hostels throughout my China trip there. And ranging from, you know, hostels that you wish you hadn't booked to. Nicer than some of the hotels that we were staying at.

Kimberly

Yeah, no question. And the thing is, is that hostels aren't just for youth are, I mean, typically referred to as youth hostels. But that that is not the case. There are plenty like an over like a huge amount of hostels that are actually just half the minimum age is 18 and they don't even allow children in. And so there I, when I host old that, that there were plenty of adults, older people who were there, couples who would because it's a really cheap way to go and families if they did have family rooms and so forth. And, and it's like there's a site called Hostel World or Hostel World. Yeah, a website. And it's like using Expedia because it's like the same sort of. You search, you get reviews, you can book hostels through them. That's very different in the days and I was doing this when you had to send them letters or call them. Yeah, I'm old and so, so many adults do use them and, and like I said, some of them accept families and they have kitchens, which is great. So you know, if you're really trying to travel in a sustainable and inexpensive way, some of them have even private accommodations. So as an adult, maybe I don't want to be in a dorm with a whole bunch of other people co ed or, or even single sex. It doesn't matter. And, and so as, as you mentioned, I mean I've been in hostels where they were nicer than some hotels I've stayed in. And it's a great way if you're a solo traveler. As I mention part of this episode that we did that I take a lot of small group tours. But hostels are also a great, great way. Any city you can go to. I have met and traveled with a lot of people just for a day or a week or something who I met in hostels and we just happen to be going the same way. And so they're really, I think a great way to go.

Jorden

No, I think they're, they're a great option and I think that they might not come top to mind because you have that kind of youth hostel dorm room and like just I, I've never enjoyed that. So I, I always went for private acc. In. In it and like minimum. Just need my own bathroom. That is my bare minimum. But I think that the, the social part is a really interesting one because like in these, you know, we've done domestic and we're on really it's a fourth kind of travel episode we're hitting at. I think we've done a good job on the economic and the environment. And this is another aspect of the social though, right? Is actually like not traveling in an isolated bubble and trying to like keep almost your, your modern life static as you move through other places. And I think that like sometimes travel can, can be set up like that and I'll never, you know, if that's what you want and that's the, the trip that you know will make you happiest do it. But I think you're also losing something. Right. And there's a point of being connected with other travelers and meeting people from around the globe, but also being connected with the local community as you're doing it. I think hostels offer a great opportunity and an easy step into that.

Kimberly

Yeah, I mean, some people are turned off by the fact that there are like the hostels. Part of the way. Way that they operate is they have a lockout during the day unless you're like, literally so sick that you can't move out of a bed. And they'll like, they'll like completely respect that. But. But they know people get travel sickness or whatever. But. But that you're locked out, but you shouldn't be in sitting in the hostel anyway. And you know, and so. So you're kind of turned out on the streets to like, force you to go in and figure out what's out there. But that. And some have curfews, you know, which is not. Not so many I. In my experience. And. And, you know, like, you might need to rent towels or sometimes rent linens or whatever. But I mean, for. Isn't it as inexpensive as they are anyway? You know, you're basically paying that when you stay in a hotel just because you don't see that cost show up. And so one of the features that that hostel world actually includes is how sustainable hostel is. And so I checked this, of course, right. And I looked at Madrid and all of them were level one, except for one, which was called Generator Madri. That was a level two. There are. They rate three plus three and then they have a three plus. And I didn't see any that were three. I only saw one that was two. And it was like a really nice basic hotel is much more what it looked like to me. And it was $40 a night during high season.

Jorden

Wow. Sorry, Kimberly, I just want to clarify. So is level one the lowest? Level three, the high.

Kimberly

Okay, yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I should have clarified that. Yeah. So level two. So that means that they're doing more. They have a sustainability strategy in place and they're working towards certification. Level 1 Bas means I, I took it sort of as, hey, we might not actually be doing anything, but this is something that Hostile World rates. So we're going to report to them like these five things or whatever. I don't even know that it's a, you know, a qualification for Hostile World. But the fact that they put it on there and people see that and they know that there are people who do care about this, that they're going to. That's something that hostels are going to.

Jorden

Consider and I mean we, you know, we see it across industries measurement is the first step towards even doing anything. And as much as like, like getting that first kind of rating just for measuring is. Is even a greenwashing. I don't like. I. It also does though allow us to start to compare claims and to have a standardized. This is what we're looking for. I think in a world without even measuring this, it's easier for a hostile or any organization to bill itself as doing good. So it's great to see that that's something that you can kind of sort. For now though, I looked, I looked.

Kimberly

At London because there are loads of hostels in London and they were. Every single one of them was a level one. I was surprised. There were nine hostels in Helsinki which is considered one of the sustainable destinations that we talked about last time. They were also all level one. So I was surprised at that. But they're level one might just be sort of like they're already operating at a higher standard anyway. And so for them they weren't reporting the same sort of way that maybe Madrid is, which is a different situation.

Jorden

It might also be that like sustainability for hostels is still more of a luxury good. Right. And not like. Because as much as I do think that you should look at like look at hostels when you traveling and you'll find some interesting options, I still think that they are more coded and sold towards younger travelers where the priority might be more like how long do I have to sleep off the next morning? And how much is the cost of the room?

Kimberly

Right, that's right. Yeah. There. There were two in Oslo and that was the only other one I looked at and one of them was a level 2. So half of them in Oslo or, or a level, you know, like one. One higher than the other. But, but I think just overall for some of the other reasons that we've talked about, it's actually sort of a more sust go anyway. And so for people who haven't considered hustling and, and that's something that, that like I was younger when I was doing this a lot and I. Even then I hated being in the dorm, the whole dorm room thing. But I did it and I. I'm here I am still. But if I doing that today, definitely private accommodation with an ensuite bathroom is like where I'm at. I hate it when I have to share like hall toilets are just the worst. Right.

Jorden

Well. And so we have a, even like a way to think about this and why is it so much More sustainable. Right. Like a hostel versus a small hotel even is one of the things to think about is the amount of space that's not being directly used to for guests is a way to think about it. So in a hotel you have a lot more space dedicated to just the running of the hotel. You know, open guest spaces where they can spend conference. All of that requires energy, right. To run to heat. All of that. That's basically being like your impact from a stay at a hotel is the kind of intent, like the energy intens and resource use of that hotel divided by its number of guests. So when you're talking about a hostel which is already going to be a smaller building, probably less efficient in a lot of ways, at least the ones that I have stayed in. But the other thing that is happening so you have, you have a lower footprint but then it's because half of it is dorms, it's being divided out by a lot more people. So even you in your private room in that hostel is going to have a smaller impact than the majority of kind of just standard hotels.

Kimberly

Yeah, I think that too that a lot of times costelling is combined within a country or Intercontinental and local, you know, Metro passes or rail travel or something. And so that, that's like the put. Put that combination of things together, you've got the most sustainable way a person can travel. I think 100%. I, I think especially for the, the not eating out all the time also helps if you're preparing some of your food, at least not all. And no, nobody should just. I mean it's unfortunate if somebody has a diet or dietary requirement where they literally have to take and carry with them whatever they eat because they're, that's, I mean like that's an amazing part.

Jorden

Of tourism experience traveling is I, I get used a lot by people who know me because I don't eat like entirely regularly or a lot. But travel, Jordan is all about the food and endless amounts.

Kimberly

So you're a foodie went on the.

Jorden

Road when on the road? Yes, very much so.

Kimberly

Another thing that people might not consider are sleeper trains. And that's something that, that a lot, you know, that's not uncommon for traveling within a big country that has a good train systems, you know, can get, you can get anywhere that to have like an overnight on a train for the type. Types of tours that I do. I hate overnight sleeper trains because I wake up the next day and I still feel like for the, because I emotion sickness like for the whole day. I don't get Motion sick on the train per se but when I get off I'm walking around like moving back and forth the entire rest of the next day and so but I, I have taken them and I do take them. There are some that Iowa just are just amazing. Like you get on and off and you have your soul. It's like you're in a hotel room that's moving and it's far more, after what we talked about with cruise ships last time it is like way less of a carbon footprint like sustainable, far more sustainable than taking a cruise.

Jorden

Oh 100. This is even like thinking that the majority of trains that you're going to do for this type of travel are going to be a, a diesel engine. And that's like taking that into account. It's still far better than a cruise. I will say I've taken a sleeper train vacation. It is on my dream list of vacations though. So you know you had a couple cool, really cool links here to, to check.

Kimberly

I found I, I wasn't even aware of some of these. I mean the thing is, is that some people might not be aware that the Orient Express still exists. Right. The Trans Siberian Railroad still actually exists. But I came across two. Oh my gosh. I, I said to Jordan like you've got to check this out because how totally cool would this be? There's the Eastern and orientation Oriental Express that goes across Southeast Asia and it just looks amazing. And then there's one that's just, I mean through India, say just India because how enormous India is. You could spend like an entire year and still not have seen everything there is to see in India. The Maharajas Express. Both of those are like wow, how amazing. And, and you know again they have a different accommodation levels so they suit a variety of budgets and tastes and so if you really need a non suite bathroom you can actually get this. How cool is that?

Jorden

Yeah, I think it's amazing. I got stuck down a rabbit hole of just looking at pictures and forgot the sustainability for a second and was just like I, I want to do this. I think part of the problem for, for me thinking about this is the only one we have in Canada is, is quite prohibitively expensive in terms of any other kind of cross Canada vacation. So it just makes me sad. And which is why this has remained a and, and very little European travel. So I haven't had a chance to, to really ch. But I think this is part of the reason why a lot of like more left wing people in Canada and North America have just like serious Train envy. Because the rest of the world does trains better.

Kimberly

Oh for sure. I mean even in Africa. I've been on trains in Africa that are like put North American trains to shame. But I mean it's also more sustainable especially because you know, you've got the transportation and the accommodation combined together. You have the same staff, you've got the same resources that are being shared and so forth. But also it's a much more efficient way than getting like taking a cruise because you're not getting to and from ports where the cruise ship docks. You're just kind of, you're on the train, you're there and you might have to take a little bit of a. Whatever to get, but it's not, it's not going to be the same sort of resource intensive impact.

Jorden

Yeah, no, I mean it'll still have a little bit of the same kind of surge pressures we talked about in any of these. But it a going to be spread out, it's, sorry. Set route happening more frequently. First of all, like when you're talking about train travel. So I think that that kind of spreads the impact out on communities, allows it to be more of a steady state rather than, oh no, we have 100,000 people descending from this cruise for the next three hours and then they're gone.

Kimberly

Like onto Santorini.

Jorden

Yeah, at different levels. So while very, very much against cruises and more so after that, I've been ruminating more on the first episode and I just feel vindicated that I've never liked cruises and I said the same.

Kimberly

Exact thing to my spouse and, and as a friend of mine to go on cruises always says I'm getting off with 3,000 of my closest cruise friends, you know, so you get off and it's, I mean that's not really much of a local experience, I don't think.

Jorden

No, no, not at all. And this is the other thing about trains though. Like it's such a different type of trip. Like it's almost incomparable in some ways to it because the, you know, like the cliche saying, right, the journey becomes. Is more important than the destination. I think that really is the difference with train track travel versus kind of if you're planning three cities and staying in hostels.

Kimberly

Well, I, I do think though that for people who do enjoy cruises, that's also the same mentality. Like the cruise itself is very much of the enjoyable part of the journey. And so, so people are okay. I mean, you know, it's not ideal if you get stuck in port and you can't actually go and see the place where you've docked at. You, you know, bother to go to an island and then you don't even get to visit the island. But, but you know, for people who really enjoy cr plenty of things on the cruise ship for them to do and that's part of the reason why they like that.

Jorden

Yeah, I mean this is I think the cool thing about doing an episode like this and trying to. We could have taken this to 10, 15 episodes and really narrowed down to each kind of type of travel and place because there really is so many different types of vacations you can take. And I think that like at least for me a goal of kind of talking through all of this has been start from like what kind of vacation do you want and then thinking through this how are we going to get there? What are we going to do while we're there and how are we going to act? And you can tweak all of those to get the vacation you want and move it towards being a more sustainable journey and then how much, how far you want to go with that is going to be up to you. But this is really a great example of there's not one size fits all for any. We could probably sit here and come up with like a random generator that would come up with millions of different sustainable vacation options. Options.

Kimberly

Yeah. And just even like okay so of course some of that's going to have more of an impact than other the flight, if you're flying anywhere it's going to have more of an impact than anything else. But, but there are other ways like we talk about in our daily lives that we make trade offs. I love to travel and that's not something I'm willing to give up. So in my daily life I try to do other things that I can to try to reduce my overall impact on the planet and people in the world. And I think you know one another thing that I have actually done which I quite enjoyed is literally living locally experiences. You get a, a home base basically and it's with everybody else who wants to have this home base and they like the, the company or the, the actual accommodation will basically set you up with maps and Metro tickets like every ticket you might need to get to wherever you're going and map, okay maps nowadays it's on your phone right. And even for hiking they'll give you hiking routes and they'll then they provide you with the food and or you can stay somewhere and it's like being in an like and, but still having that Same sort of support. So I did this in Italy, I actually did it twice in Italy. And it was like, it was. I got to be in San Gimignano and we were based out of there and then we got to go to the neighboring places that were worth visiting and we had an actual guide who was telling us all of the important things. But then we also got to go off on our own. And then the rest of it was like you're just there and you can spend your time. You know, there was a washer and dryer. You could do your laundry, you could go to the grocery store and make food or you could go out to eat. And you know, they had some organized things, but they got us from point to point. And then you could come back at your leisure because you knew how to use the transit at that point. And so I think that was interesting. And not to mention the fact that then you're supporting local industries, you're supporting local people who are providing sometimes these accommodations that are their own houses that they're renting out or apartments that they have or whatever. And also you're having more interaction with locals, like just invariably because of this much more immersive experience. And so I mean, those are things I would say, you know, check those things out.

Jorden

Well, and I bet that's also. I just think that by taking that route it's definitely, it's more work for you, but I find it to be more of an actual engaging. Like those are my favorite vacations have been the ones where, and I will say with this kind, I typically think a longer trip is going to be more conducive to it, but you feel like you got to see the country, not the sites.

Kimberly

All my trips are longer trips. Jordan. I've never been a country ticker offer. Like, in fact, my students asked me at one point how many countries I had visited. I didn't even know. And so for me it's just been about the. If I'm going somewhere, I want to see where I'm going. And there are times I've been so close to the border of another country, I'm like, well, you know, okay, I could I get on a bus and go across the border and just to say I've been there. But like, what's the point for me anyway? You know, for some people it is the point, but for me is not the point. So.

Jorden

Well, and some of us can't take month long vacation excursions still.

Kimberly

So you're just in the wrong. You're in the wrong line of work you got to go into, you know, academia.

Jorden

No, but I do think that it's something really special when you get to do that, when you.

Kimberly

Oh, without question. No, absolutely. So.

Jorden

Right. More than just like, oh, I went to the country, not even just to check it off, but, like, I think that, like, and I've done vacations like this where you're racing around for the six days you're there, you see every kind of site that you're supposed to see, and you get home and you feel more burnt out. You have some great memories, but they almost all, like, start blending together by the. By the end of it. And I think that, you know, in every sustainability issue we talk about, at some point, we talk about being more intentional with your decisions. Wow, that word did not want to come today. And slowing down. And I think that it applies to every part of sustainability and it can apply to travel just as easily, like, take a little more time to think about what you want out of the trip and how you're going to do it, and that'll lead to a better trip.

Kimberly

I. Oh. Over the years of traveling, and I know how fortunate I am, believe me, and I know how. And I am grateful for that.

Jorden

And.

Kimberly

And over the years, that has definitely been. Initially, I was much more of a, oh, I'm, you know, in this city or this place, I need to see these things. And now I'm much more of a, well, what are the main things I really want to see and how I want to spend my time? And if I come away and somebody says, oh, did you get to see such and such? And I say, no. You're like, oh, my gosh, how could you possibly admit, you know, that thing? Well, you know, there are other things that were, to me personally, much more worth seeing. And I do think it's along the lines what we said. It's much more intention. You're taking your time. You're really, you know, getting more out of it and putting more into it for the people who you're around, too.

Jorden

Yeah, no, I mean, for me personally, this one I still. I always think of. So I was in China, as I mentioned, but I didn't see the Great Wall of China. And it was because of how travel worked. We really only had a night and then a day in Beijing. And it was the decision of, do we see a literal world wonder, but it is going to be the entire day only thing we see, or do we spend the day walk, walking around from Tiananmen Square in the Forbidden City to the Temple of Heaven. Two hours over the biggest market in Beijing and then just experiencing that. I mean, I, at one point on this, on these wanderings, because we're walking through the city, I just smelt something and went down an alley. And I'm pretty sure I paid people who were cooking their lunch for part of their lunch, but it was the best bao buns I've ever had in my life. And my friend and I continued on walking and so I always get that question, did you see the Great Wall? And then I have to tell people, no, I didn't. And you always get this look of like, you went, you flew to China and you didn't see that. And then trying to explain to them that I would trade those, like 12 hours of walking around the city over and over to go and stand in line and see something amazing. And I have no doubt that it would have been an iconic experience, but I wouldn't trade that for the world.

Kimberly

And not only that, but that just the amount of time you just would have spent with other people like you on the bus or whatever to get the transit, to get there and back, just say that you got to see. And that's it, though. But that's. If that's your prerogative, you know that, then that's what you do. And so, so when we do travel, another thing about being intentional is what to take with us. And I, I don't, I don't remember exactly when. I just remember at one point, fuel prices shot up and airlines started deciding they were going to check. They were going to actually charge people for the number of bags they had. And then they moved to that whole system of, well, you can carry on this one thing now it like a nightmare trying to get on a plane with everybody trying to stow their baggage and fighting over a baggage space and, and hitting you in the head with their suitcases. They're walking by and stuff. And, and so like. But at the same point, that actually was a good thing for sustainability because most people didn't want to pay extra to check a bag.

Jorden

Well, no, and it's, it's created this weird inversion where, you know, 10 years ago when you were getting on a flight, you wanted to be the last person on, so you had the least amount of extra time sitting. And now I need to be in zone one or two because I don'. If my carry on is going to get on by the, the end of this.

Kimberly

Right. That's the same, Same for me too, is I, I, when I come home from a place I try to check as much as possible just to not have to lug it around with me and then I can get like literally be the last person on the plane. I'm quite happy to be the last person on the plane. But on the way there, there are certain things I want to make sure that go with me and I don't want to have to worry about if they end up in, you know, the baggage hold, even if it's just to bring it out at the end of that whatever. If coming out of Cincinnati there aren't a lot of direct locations we can get to. So a lot of times I rarely have a connection. And so yeah, you get on those, one of those tiny little planes and where you're checking your, your whatever you're carrying regardless. And so, but another thing on luggage.

Jorden

I wanted to actually like reference is like this is an area where I think it's underrated, but spending a little extra money on good luggage is, is one of the like very long term decisions you can make that'll actually like drive your overall impact. I, you know, I think about some of the cheap stuff that was like bought even when I bought when I 18, 20, trying to get like, you know, stuff together and it's broken down and like my parents are still using the suitcases they had from the 80s.

Kimberly

Yeah. But I bet they weigh a ton though too. And that's the trade off, right? Because you're giving what you can get, something that's a lot heftier but then you're cut, you know, you're coughing up those extra pounds for that. And so I am very hard on. But that's fair because I do a lot of wheeling with my suitcase. But, and I like, I, I have backpacked and I can't stand trying to dig stuff out of the bot of a backpack that I'm done, done with that. Like I need a suitcase and so I just get the ones that are recommended for the people who are airline, you know, flight attendants and people who are, you know, regularly do that because they do hold up a lot longer than that I have found. Oh no, they're super lightweight too.

Jorden

Well, and that's the thing. It's you. We're not saying you have to go find some luxury brand or something. Right. It's just like actually looking at what's going to, what's going to last. I mean there's two ways of looking at it. For me, it's always cost of the item divided by the amount of years I use it. Right. Or number of times you use it and that's really going to drive like again is like, especially most of the luggage nowadays is just made of plastic. Right. So you're, every time you're, you're breaking that down and throwing that away, you're driving more garbage. And I think it's just one of those ones where the difference between that kind of recommended brand for, for airlines and I'm thinking like we've all seen, for me it's WestJet and I can literally picture them walking with their bags. It's not that much of a, a price difference than just buying something quick off Amazon.

Kimberly

Well, when I say that I'm hard on, like, I have only probably had to like the entire like times that I've done a lot of international traveling. And so to me that seems like a lot. But when I actually, if I were broke down my cost per wear like, oh yeah. I'm pretty sure I probably one cent, you know, at this point for what I paid for it. Yeah. So toiletries always like a big one that end up being a discussion for me. It's because there's so much travel size everything. And I am somebody who I still like, I fight with. I like to be able to dump stuff as I go, so I want to have smaller containers. I, I do buy things I can refill though. And so I, I don't necessarily dump containers as I go. That's something that I don't feel okay with. But I, I, they're super light like, and they don't take up much space and so that's cool. So. But when it comes to the stuff like toothpaste that you can't really refill, I, when I go to the dentist now and they, the tiny little flosses and you know, the, the tiny tube toothpaste, I just, I refuse them at this point because I'm just like, you know, it's not, it's not the best way. I will take some of the tiny toothpaste because I cannot not brush my teeth while in transit. And, and so I, it's hard to, I mean with everything else you're hauling, it's hard to haul a whole tooth, a tube of toothpaste and have to dig it out when you're in an airport bathroom or in it even worse in the, in the airplane bathroom. And so that actually, but I try not to, to use those.

Jorden

So that's one area where, because I fly a lot for work now, so I'm doing a lot more shorter trips. But actually last year at A point I had realized I was like through my third or fourth little mini toothpaste and it, it like it was enough that I went to throw it out and it bothered me. My brain kind of like clicked and was like, how many have you used? So I did I take the extra weight and I switched. I only buy like my standard house toothpaste now and I 100 milliliters so it can go in and it'll get through TSA because yeah, it's like those, those trade offs like you said. Especially if you're going for like a month or three weeks, you have a lot of stuff you need to bring and so you might not be able to do that. And I think it's, you know, balancing out where you can. Right.

Kimberly

Well, one of the things too is, and I, I actually generally, besides the ones that I have for the carry on the mini one, I do pack like regular standard size tube. And the good thing is too is if you, that's one thing, if you run out, you're going to find toothpaste no matter where you go. So, So a lot of times I think people have the mentality of oh my gosh. Unless, I mean, let's, unless you're going to the outer reaches of Mongolia, chances are pretty good you're gonna be able to find like toothpaste, deodorant, you know, like sort of the basic stuff. And so that's one thing too that like some of the favorite toothpaste I've ever had used are ones that like places I've been and I'll never be able to get again. You know, like, yes, I come home and I look for them like now I'm never getting that one again. But so that's kind cool thing too, you know, to try out something different as part of the travel experience.

Jorden

I love going grocery shopping in other countries. The fun one for me is I was in China in 2013 and they were in the full swing of the charcoal craze, which didn't hit us till like 2018, 2019. So I tried charcoal toothpaste back in 2013 and was like, this is horrible. Why is this a thing? And then watching as it became a thing here and some of my friends were getting excited about it, I'm like, please go buy it, please try it. It is not a great experience.

Kimberly

Well, I just did a substack post a little, little push for me about the difference between using charcoal and propane for grilling. Because it's, you know, cooking grilling season and one of the things I came across with that is that now there's this whole thing with charcoal, like in, you know, it's for detoxifying everything and whatever. And yeah, there's the legitimate use in hospitals for when people end up coming in with something in their system that needs to be quick, quickly, you know, ingested. But, but for all of those things that supposedly all these drinks are selling you, like, no way. I didn't include that in the substack post, but I thought that was like. So to your point, like, how much is this charcoal to this, that it really doesn't taste great. And it's probably not, you know, like it's abrasive on your teeth. So while it might be whitening, it's also kind of having an adverse effect. Like you really want to be doing that. So, you know, use your discretion when you do this.

Jorden

But we, we got a good one here. And I agree you have a note that it, it's worthy of its own bullet point. It really is. And I think that screen separate from toiletries. I will own up that I have always been the worst for this. I was that kid whose mom would say, hey, you know, remember to put sunscreen on. And I would look her dead in the eyes and lie and say, yes, mom, I did. And then run off to play in the water.

Kimberly

And then lobster colored Jordan would be back later that day.

Jorden

You know what, when you were as pale of a Canadian as I am, you just, you gotta rock those two months of sun we get. So.

Kimberly

So yeah, the thing with this is it is so important when going to beach that's connected to an ocean especially. But this applies really for any water source, but especially for. Because there is unquestionable extensive scientific research that finds that oxybenzone and octinoxate damage coral reefs and have adverse effects on sea turtles and other sea life. And it's basically every name brand sunscreen that anybody could name, those are like the worst offenders. Now some of them are making an attempt to change this because they have such a bad reputation now starting to get that time associated with this. But I found that the state of Hawaii now actually when you arrive in Hawaii, Hawaiian Airlines gives out reef safe sunscreen to passengers upon arrival. Because in Hawaii they actually have banned sunscreens that are not reef safe and they won't sell them there. And they actually show an in flight educational video about the issue. So they're really making it. I mean, it makes sense. I mean, here you've got these, these islands, you know, like they Want to preserve that ecosystem that they've got. And, and other places are doing this. Australia, Australia is really big. I mean the whole Barrier Reef is in jeopardy at this point. And, and so when the, the last time I was going to that beach resort in, in Cancun and Playa del Carmen, I was going to a place that was very sea turtle. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I gotta do something here. Hey. Like I'm not just at home or I'm walking through the woods and I can sweat out banana boat and it's not gonna hurt really anybody but. And so I did some research and found that the environmental working group actually has a searchable database to compare sunscreens. And friendly they are and also ones that they give recommendations too so that you're not just ending up like, like covered in zinc oxide and you know, like this. So you don't really want that either. And these same places are moving more toward like trying to push for refillable containers and showers because plastic, ocean plastic is so bad. And so now I've seen more hotels that actually will have refillable containers in the showers, but I don't see very many refillable hand soap containers. Containers at sinks? No, in, in person in bathrooms. Right. In hotel rooms or whatever, wherever the accommodation is. They, I mean even like we stated a vacation rental for a family trip recently. Well, a few times. And every time they even they provide little individual hand wrapped soaps. So. And so I always wonder, I like for my whole life I was literally like what happens to these little tiny bars of soaps that are completely usable? Like what do they throw them away? And I remember when I was little our church used to collect just everyday house soap. If you had the end of a bar, they collect them all and melt them down and reuse them.

Jorden

Oh.

Kimberly

And yeah, so I was always wonder if like you know, in developing countries they just do this so at least they can use like in the, wherever their accommodations or people take them home and use them. So what I started doing like years ago was I actually will try to stick the soap back in. I try to open the container, you know, the package carefully and then I take it and I carry it on with me until the soap is gone because I just like, I love it when they're, they are, especially when they're cardboard boxes because they're a lot easier to get back out again. But like, you know, like, because you need to use soap and I'm not going to be in a bathroom in a hotel and just using hand sanitizer because like, you know, that's just not going to fly. But, but that's one thing you can do, I think.

Jorden

Yeah, no, and I think it's been really good to see is like just a base level like we were talking about last time. Hotels have a lot of incentive to take some of these actions from just their bottom line. Right. So having the kind of on the wall refillable and reusable shampoos and body washes, that's a cost saving at the end of the day for the hotel as well.

Kimberly

No question. Buying it in for them.

Jorden

Yeah, yeah, right. And then just refilling in the room. So. And then. But that's a lot less plastic waste.

Kimberly

It's a lot. Also it saves them on waste management too. So especially when you start talking about developing countries where they just don't necessarily have waste services, it's up to that property to take it upon themselves to dispose of that. Like they absolutely want to have less, the least waste possible. And I think that goes along with what, what you should leave behind and shouldn't take with you. I think that's like, what's it just as important to consider that.

Jorden

Yeah, no, I just wanted to jump in on the sunscreen for, for one quick sec before we move on. One fun fact for Everybody. It's a $10 billion global industry annually. So just anytime you think something's small, it's probably a billion dollar industry. But the reason I wanted to bring it up is because I think like the, the impact on coral reefs from the, the, the actual sunscreen itself, I think this is a great nexus of kind of the travel problem is we've been talking about all these locations and a lot of them because of their natural beauty. And at the same time we've kind of focused on the impact you have on them while there, which can speed up their degradation. And at the, throughout the whole conversation there's the, also the kind of overarching climate change driving impacts on these locations. So and I think the, the sunscreen and the, the impact on coral reefs is just kind of a great way to, to think about that for a second because you're, you know, raised. We have tourists racing to see these places before they disappear. And as they race to see them before they disappear, driving impact that' causing them to disappear quicker. And it's just the, the paradox of going to see remote and, you know, beautiful locations.

Kimberly

It's the same with what we talked about with cruises and why Norway has instituted this policy that we discussed in the last episode of trying to preserve the fjords because it's not just global climate change that's that's causing it, but it's the actual local emissions from the cruise ships and the, and the small boats that are going through there. And so yeah, I mean that's kind of a, a good also we don't want to leave that behind. We don't want to leave sunscreen behind. Right. We don't want to le stuff behind. It's going to degradate these areas. And I think too just like what we were talking about with waste, it's a huge onus on especially developing countries, especially in rural areas for them to have to dispose of waste. And so if you are in a rural area, it's actually better to whenever possible dispose of as little possible there and carry like stuff with you to get rid of it. Where there is an urban system set up for waste disposal instead of just putting that on the locals who, you know, probably what's going to happen is they're going to end up burning it. And so like that's, that's. Or else it's going to go into a landfill. And we've talked about those things before, how bad both of those are. And so I think that that's part of it too. And also, but you know, this forces the decision between convenience and lightening the load as you go like I was talking about with that tiny toothpaste but and other disposable products. And so that's something also, also to be cons to consider. It's not. Doesn't really weigh that much more to take a full tube of toothpaste than it does to take multiple tiny tubes of toothpaste. And you know, so you have the tube with you when you go back but oh, it's not the end of the world. Right. There are plenty of other things you will use and dispose of on your way. And so, and that's. That goes before clothes too. I think one of the things I always do still to this day whenever I take a trip is I pack and then I take more clothes out because I know even to this point that I will pack like a few things too many that I'm probably not going to need. And actually I'm to the point now where when I take a trip there is nothing, almost nothing that I. It's rare that I come home and not have worn what it had been in my suitcase.

Jorden

I am, I'm definitely the opposite. The people who travel with me, I'm definitely known as the person who's brought everything for every situation. Now I'm going to spin this, you know, see because I work in communications, I'm going to frame this as I like to travel and not not have to buy extra useless stuff. So if I already have it at home bringing that rain jacket just to have it and this thing still stay within a carry on. But I do think that is the, the balance to it though, right? Because I think sometimes being one of the things that can like a trip can drive is unnecessary consumption where you're, you're buying it just because you needed it for that one hour. I can think of the amount of umbrellas I know people have bought in rainy cities, especially Calgary, we don't get a lot of rain umbrella is not a thing thing you're thinking about. But so I think there is a balance.

Kimberly

That rain jacket is the one thing that oftentimes I pack and don't wear. Like that's literally maybe the only thing I don't use and I am happy if I don't have to use that. Right. So that's, that's. But it goes, that's one of those things. Absolutely. But. And it's about layers too. The more layer layering you can do the better. And things that are also like multipurpose. And so I have a thing that doubles as a sarong. It doubles as a, like a extra layer on a plane or a train or whatever. If I'm a bit chilly. It doubles as a, for women having to have your head or whatever, shoulders, whatever covered. Like I have something that, you know, I can wrap around me that acts as a skirt and then it covers my knees. And so those are the sorts of things like then you can use it as a scarf if it gets chilly. So those are the sorts of things. The more of those that you can take like the better off you're going to be. And that extra luggage contributes to more carbon emissions. And that was why flights, you know, like they wanted to cut back. Not because of that because at the time nobody was. People might have been sort of thinking about it, but they were thinking about oh my gosh, that's more fuel. Right? Fuel is so expensive and they start giving us those fuel surcharges and, and how can we stop doing this? Because eventually we're going to get in trouble for it. Which they did. And so how can we get around that?

Jorden

Well, the irony of bags of people. No, no, no, sorry. It's just the irony is that every flight I've been on in the last year, they've been begging people to now check luggage. And, hey, almost like, we'll pay you 20 bucks to check that bag, please.

Kimberly

Or else, please check it. And we won't charge you for putting that in the towage. And with the whole incentive of, oh, now you don't have to carry it around, you could be liberated from your luggage sort of thing. And so, yeah, yeah, I, if they.

Jorden

Could unload my bag in under an hour and a half, I might consider it.

Kimberly

So where are we, you know, when we get there? What are we doing? We talked a lot about in the last episode about amusement parks and, and, and cities and sightseeing and so forth, but I was thinking more kind of along the lines of going from country to country or island hopping and how we get to these places and the impact that that has. As we were talking about, if you're in China, is it really worth the trip just to say you got to walk on the Great wa. China for 20 minutes and then spent the rest of the time in transit? Then the amazing immersive experience that you had walking around the city and maybe taking public transportation? And that's the same with people who are country collectors. And I, I always, I know I sound like, okay, hate cruises and I hate country collectors. And okay, maybe I do. So. All right, my bias is out there, and I admit it. Overland tours, I mean, that's a thing where you go and you basically are hitting as many countries as you possibly can on that tour. They're better if you're doing it with groups. You're better if, you know, if it's using transportation. It's better if you're not flying from destination to destination. It's better if you're taking your, like, there are ways you can also go about that, too. So if that's your objective and that's the way you like to, you know, live your life, then, hey, then at least there are sustainable ways you can go about doing that.

Jorden

Yeah, and the other thing I'd mention too, though, that is like, you know, from us in North America, going to basically any kind of international destination, you've got a lot of upfront kilometers to get there. So I, I do think that again, if you're being intentional about it, to your point, if you're flying country to country to country, doing a day here and then a flight, that's going to rapidly drive up your, your kind of your impact from that trip. Now if you're, you're thinking about, you've already made the flight to London, Right. And if you can add five days in France and, and you know, take the Channel across or. Right. That you're, you're now actually taking that initial cost of environmental impact to get there and spreading it out a little bit. So I think that again, to your. Your real point here is that if you're just doing it to get the checkbox, it's probably not going to work out. Well, if you're, you know, spending, thinking about intentionally, you can actually find a way to kind of reduce your overall impact while increasing it slightly.

Kimberly

But, but that's almost like combining errands, right? I mean, in your daily life, because you really want to see Paris or you really want to cross over and, and spend the day and, you know, like on the coast, whatever, in France and you're already in the uk, so. Okay. Or, or you want to go to Ireland and you just get on, hop on the ferry, you can go from Hollyhead to Dun Dun Lair and back and forth in like, you know, a few days and, and have a great trip. And so sort of along those lines. But if you're just flying from destination to destination, I think that that's like. And think about it too, just in a sustainable way for your own personal existence. Because how many hours are you racking up in an airport? Right. You have to get there two hours ahead of time, however long it takes you to get there from where you're staying. Then you arrive and you've got to through, go through, protect sometimes immigration and customs and if you've checked bags and then you have to get from the airport to where you are and, and then you're losing a lot of that time when you could have been doing something much more interesting, you know, somewhere else perhaps. I think another thing is remote locations. That's something that, you know. Yes, there are amazing, phenomenal cultural wildlife photography, trekking adventure, you. You name it sort of things. And, and again, there's such a huge impact on those at the front end. I want to go to Rapa Nui to see Easter Islands and, you know, like the, the statues. But every time I look at it, I just cringe and go, oh, my gosh. Because it's so far out of the way. I read about it, they're just having more and more problems with plastic and just water and all sorts of things. And I like, do I really want to. As much as I'd like to see that. And now it's just so overrun with Taurus. What sort of experience is it going to be maybe there are some other places where I could also have amazing experiences. And yeah, maybe that's a place I'll never get to and that's a bummer.

Jorden

But yeah, I really think of these as a paradoxical kind of problem is that you think you're going to this really remote natural place so it should be great. Right? And it's going to be completely natural. And then I think of like I know a great sustainability focused company here in Canada that does tours but because of where their location is, it's fly in helicopter tour. So for the three to max four people who can go to this and like once you're there it is incredibly, it is entirely a sustainable operation and the owners have done I, I mean like, like platinum level job making sure. But like as, as we were working on a project with them when we went through it, there's just no way to erase the, the fuel cost of FL a helicopter into a remote location. Right.

Kimberly

Well at least they're doing the best they can considering that people will be doing this and people will do it even especially you know, they'll people, plenty of people will do it in a not sustainable way. So at least they're making that effort.

Jorden

100 which is where we kind of pointed to right. Like just like you're going to have an impact from this. Don't think that you're bad because there's fuel up front. Like that's better than being horrible on every other step afterwards. But to your point. Sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

Kimberly

No, I was just saying that's the same thing we talked about with airlines and sustainable fuel. Like there are other things airlines can do too if they're not at the sustainable fuel point yet. And that's the same with these remote locations like as we talked about with Mount Everest. Everybody just wanted to queue up to go to Everest. Like that's not a remote location anymore.

Jorden

No, not at all. And that's the, the to your point they kind of rapidly fill up and like I, I made the point last one on the domestic with kind of the influencer posts. Right. And suddenly that remote location that's now been geotagged has a thousand people people at it within the next week.

Kimberly

Yeah, yeah. And then I have to say another one of those things that I just. Shopping tours. I have been around people who are in destinations just to shop like they are there. Morocco is a destination like that's one of those places sold as a shopping shopping tours for the destination. And and so I all I can say is ugg when it comes to that. But again, there are people who, you know, so, so because we do not want to pass judgment. We just want to educate people and we want to, I mean if people are list the first place, then you obviously either were tortured to listen to this or care a little bit about sustainability. And so, so there are, you know, like everything else, there are ways you're going to eat meat, fine, eat meat, but maybe give up meat on Monday or don't waste as much food or whatever. You know, there are lots of trade offs that we can make if, if that's like what your dying urges.

Jorden

Yeah. And I mean like I, as I said on the last one, I'm bad for my, my grandmother instilled gift, you know, the gift shop Jean and me. But I think there's like fun ways that if you, if shopping is the thing you love. Okay, like let's, like, like I almost would want to be like, okay, let's take that on as the challenge. Okay, so fine, you want to have a shopping tour. Well then can you only buy things that were made or produced within a certain range of it? Let's set that as a, as a goal. Like let's make it fun too. Right? Like and now and not just a kind of. I don't know, for me you shouldn't buy anything on vacation. You can buy at home. Like I mean the same good. Not like a book. Again, anybody tells me not to buy a book is going to get into a. But that's, but it. I just don't think that you should be buying, you know, like the T shirt that you can buy at home. I guess is, is where I'm going with that. And there's lots of ways that again you can buy amazing things, spend money locally and drive a great impact.

Kimberly

Yeah. And I mean the thing is, is that it is that you know, putting into the local economy especially I've been with people who were on sustainable like based tours and still spent heaps of money and they're like, oh, but I'm supporting the locals. Okay. And that's great. But then I found out like this one woman had an entire room in her house that that's all it was, was st bought on tours and it was just sitting in this room, you know. So like that's not, you know, that's not really sustainable either. So. So as far as things go then like do you feel, are you feeling hopeful about this?

Jorden

So, you know, I think I'll build off of what we said last time right when we Ended the first part of this episode. I said I was hopeful because it's an area where there's lots of options and a little intentionality can go a long way to start. Even taking off some of that, that top level impact where I, I'm less hopeful is that it's one of those areas where it's almost entirely on the individual, as I think I've made clear on the show. I think that when you can make a system change that'll just kind of changes everybody's behavior naturally, that's going to be the easiest and most impactful. This one. I'm less hopeful because it really relies on, on everybody being really intentional. And I'll just say from personal experience, I make a spreadsheet for every vacation I do and plan out the date days and I get really into it and people's reactions to that makes me think that they're not going to be intentionally spending a lot of time planning.

Kimberly

Okay, we would get along really well because I do the exact same thing. Everybody asks why, why my spouse doesn't like to travel when I literally plan everything always to do is pack a suitcase. You know, like, like, why don't you just buy him a ticket and just, you know, say, oh, we're leaving. You know, I'm not, I love him too much. I'm not gonna do it.

Jorden

I love him too much to just buy the ticket.

Kimberly

But yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And I think like, you know what this, what the state of Hawaii has done with the sunscreen and the country of Australia, like moving in that direction. Like you said, it's built in. And there are some resorts that just refuse, like you cannot use. If you have that sunscreen, then you are banned from using it. We will collect it, whatever they do. But so much of what we've discussed today is really up to the individual. And so hopefully, if nothing else, people who do care a bit, we've given you something to think about and consider moving forward.

Jorden

Well, I mean, maybe just to tack onto that, Kimberly, this is an area where like we've driven a large part of the 10% of the global economy is driven by 10% of the population. This is an area where it does like small numbers of people shifting their money is actually pretty big considering the numbers of people we're talking about. So maybe that that's the kind of hopeful spin I would add is that it is an area where it is on us as the individuals, but we can have an outsized impact by driving that.

Kimberly

Yeah. Because of that there, there are some of these same people who are doing these same things. And so it is likely, it is more likely that you or I have more impact with what we're doing and the more changes that we can make than just say, you know, in a lot of other areas that we talk about.

Jorden

Yeah.

Kimberly

Yeah. So if you enjoyed our episode of Sustainable Planet or even if you didn't, let us know@splanetpodgmail.com we're also on Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. You'll find these links in our show notes along with additional resources from today's show, including my substack post, and on our website@splanetpod.com if you have time, we'd really appreciate if you rate and review us. Tell your friends and family and anybody who will listen to you to listen to us because that would also be awesome. Spread the word. Thanks for listening. Have a sustainable trip and a sustainable day.