The Hidden Costs of the Perfect Lawn
Lawns may look harmless, but they’re water-wasting, chemical-laden, carbon-emitting symbols of unsustainability.
Episode 39
10/9/2025
We return home after our series of travel episodes, stepping foot on the environmental money pit disguised as curb appeal. In this episode of Sustainable Planet, Jorden and Kimberly explore the historical roots of lawn aesthetics, the significant water and chemical usage associated with maintaining lawns, and the broader social inequities tied to lawn culture. What has become a status symbol, whose maintenance is often mandated by law, the modern lawn needs an update to be more sustainable.
Recommended Resources
The growth of lawn popularity in the US
Paul Robbins’s sociological take on lawn culture
Residential lawns in the US
Resource stats for lawns
Not just a US issue
Why lawns are ecological deserts
Kimberly’s Substack newsletter post
Episode Transcript
Kimberly
Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist Kimbery Weir and my co host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues. Hi, Jordan.
Jorden
Hi, Kimberly. Thanks for joining me today. So we've made it through the airport chaos, we're landed, and now it's time to actually enjoy the trip. But international vacations don't just carry emissions from the travel. What we do once we arrive matters just as much. From where we stay to what we bring and buy, we're diving into the on the ground choices that shape whether our travel dollars help or harm the places we visit today. So, Kimber, once you've arrived at your destination, what do you think is the most underrated sustainability choice people can make while on vacation?
Kimberly
Well, since we'll be talking about what to take with us in this segment, I say that that can have a big impact about how sustainable someone can be while they're traveling and at their destination. But if we're talking specifically about being in country, I'd say be as respectful as possible to the sites that people that, you know, you visit. That's the same what we talked about in the domestic episode with the Leave no Trace and that principle carries anywhere to the respect to the sites and the people, you know, locals that and also opt for locally produced goods when possible. Right. The sort of same thing we talked about with souvenirs in the domestic episode, that they make for better souvenirs. They support the local economy. And this might sound really strange, but also for local services, like, it's better to pay the accommodation to do your laundry for you to have, like if you're in a developing country especially. But this also applies to global north countries to have your laundry done because if you hand wash it yourself, you're going to invariably use more water. And so when possible, some people don't want, you know, like to give up their undergarments. Okay, so whatever. But you know, wearing, you know, washing other clothes, it's, it's a lot goes, you go through a lot more water than a wash cycle would. But especially in developing countries in rural areas, like, they can use this money in the economy and they'll use less water, your clothes will look better, no question. Like, especially linens and cottons. And invariably they're probably likely to iron them as well. They're going to come out better looking and then it gives you more time to enjoy your trip instead of worrying about like basically doing house duties while you're traveling. So I would say that that's One of the things I especially picked up while I was traveling.
Jorden
Yeah, no, I really. I really like that. That tip because you. You almost think about it. It's one of those things where it sounds like I'm making somebody do my laundry. Right. But, like, as you pointed out, it's actually now being done in a big batch with a bunch of other people's laundry. The fact that you're helping with that employment. Right. Which I guess gets to. My thing, I think about traveling is I want to spend my money as far away from a chain or an international company. There's nothing really wrong with them in the sense that they're still employing. But, like, when I think it's going to sound silly, but just like at a basic economic principle, like the, like the closer to the kind of base of an economy you're spending the money, the longer that money will circulate in the economy and have a bigger impact. So that's like, really what I'm driving for there is that, you know, eating at a small food stand, you know, over a subway that's in every country now, right. Or while it's fun to try the McDonald's burger of the specific country you're in, it's better to go to a small restaurant. And honestly, one of my biggest travel tips is like, look for food stands and restaurants that have lineups of local people. You're. You're going to get some of the best food you've ever had. You're not going to get sick from it, typically. And that money is making a bigger impact, definitely.
Kimberly
I mean, all that money that's repatriated back to the home, you know, country headquarters of whatever franchise and so forth. That's definitely. And that's not to say that, I mean, there are locals who are employed at McDonald's, and McDonald's was always, for the longest time, like my go to. But you knew they had clean bathrooms no matter where in the world you were. But no, I definitely agree with you. And I think it's really an important point is make sure people are lined up and they are locals, because that's gonna. And also, just don't eat anywhere, you know, because that's not a good tip. E. You know, like, if stuff looks like it's been sitting out for a long time, don't eat it. Just be careful with street. Street food. But definitely, I think that's a good tip, too. I think, like, as we talked about with international travel in the first segment of this episode, in 2024, tourism accounted for about 10% of the global economy. So almost $11 trillion was, was going into the global GDP like hundreds of millions of jobs, one out of every 10 job almost in the supported by the tourism industry. And so when we look that on top of what international visitors are spending almost $2 trillion, we're talking about like a big impact that people who are traveling have. Yeah.
Jorden
And as we, as we were saying, this is still a relatively small part of the, the global like it's, it's a large part of the global economy in terms of actual impact, but in terms of the, you know, global population that's driving this or engaging in it. Still relatively small and only projected to grow over the next century as more countries move into that middle Inc. And like I think that will increasingly seeing see it take up a larger share of the economy but also increasingly drive more and more sustainability challenges.
Kimberly
And I think that, you know, one of the things too that goes along with where are we staying? It's again, you know, at the risk of repeating what we actually talked about, you know, go back and listen to the domestic episode and you'll hear a lot of what we already talked about regarding the, the issues with hotels versus local places and so forth. And so moving beyond those in the vacation rentals and resorts and camping that we talked about in that segment of the big giant travel episodes that we're doing here series on travel with Jordan and Kimberly. Since the sustainability issues are similar, we thought we'd actually focus on what are some of the other options. And in my mind, one of them is particularly European. Right. I mean when you think of hostels, do you think not think of like backpacking through Europe?
Jorden
Well, I have not actually done a European backpacking trip. So when I think of hostels, I think of China, which is where I used hostels throughout my China trip there. And ranging from, you know, hostels that you wish you hadn't booked to. Nicer than some of the hotels that we were staying at.
Kimberly
Yeah, no question. And the thing is, is that hostels aren't just for youth are, I mean, typically referred to as youth hostels. But that that is not the case. There are plenty like an over like a huge amount of hostels that are actually just half the minimum age is 18 and they don't even allow children in. And so there I, when I host old that, that there were plenty of adults, older people who were there, couples who would because it's a really cheap way to go and families if they did have family rooms and so forth. And, and it's like there's a site called Hostel World or Hostel World. Yeah, a website. And it's like using Expedia because it's like the same sort of. You search, you get reviews, you can book hostels through them. That's very different in the days and I was doing this when you had to send them letters or call them. Yeah, I'm old and so, so many adults do use them and, and like I said, some of them accept families and they have kitchens, which is great. So you know, if you're really trying to travel in a sustainable and inexpensive way, some of them have even private accommodations. So as an adult, maybe I don't want to be in a dorm with a whole bunch of other people co ed or, or even single sex. It doesn't matter. And, and so as, as you mentioned, I mean I've been in hostels where they were nicer than some hotels I've stayed in. And it's a great way if you're a solo traveler. As I mention part of this episode that we did that I take a lot of small group tours. But hostels are also a great, great way. Any city you can go to. I have met and traveled with a lot of people just for a day or a week or something who I met in hostels and we just happen to be going the same way. And so they're really, I think a great way to go.
Jorden
No, I think they're, they're a great option and I think that they might not come top to mind because you have that kind of youth hostel dorm room and like just I, I've never enjoyed that. So I, I always went for private acc. In. In it and like minimum. Just need my own bathroom. That is my bare minimum. But I think that the, the social part is a really interesting one because like in these, you know, we've done domestic and we're on really it's a fourth kind of travel episode we're hitting at. I think we've done a good job on the economic and the environment. And this is another aspect of the social though, right? Is actually like not traveling in an isolated bubble and trying to like keep almost your, your modern life static as you move through other places. And I think that like sometimes travel can, can be set up like that and I'll never, you know, if that's what you want and that's the, the trip that you know will make you happiest do it. But I think you're also losing something. Right. And there's a point of being connected with other travelers and meeting people from around the globe, but also being connected with the local community as you're doing it. I think hostels offer a great opportunity and an easy step into that.
Kimberly
Yeah, I mean, some people are turned off by the fact that there are like the hostels. Part of the way. Way that they operate is they have a lockout during the day unless you're like, literally so sick that you can't move out of a bed. And they'll like, they'll like completely respect that. But. But they know people get travel sickness or whatever. But. But that you're locked out, but you shouldn't be in sitting in the hostel anyway. And you know, and so. So you're kind of turned out on the streets to like, force you to go in and figure out what's out there. But that. And some have curfews, you know, which is not. Not so many I. In my experience. And. And, you know, like, you might need to rent towels or sometimes rent linens or whatever. But I mean, for. Isn't it as inexpensive as they are anyway? You know, you're basically paying that when you stay in a hotel just because you don't see that cost show up. And so one of the features that that hostel world actually includes is how sustainable hostel is. And so I checked this, of course, right. And I looked at Madrid and all of them were level one, except for one, which was called Generator Madri. That was a level two. There are. They rate three plus three and then they have a three plus. And I didn't see any thKimberly (00:00)
Welcome to Sustainable Planet. I am political scientist Kimberly Weir and my co-host is Jorden Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues.
Jorden (00:09)
Hi, Kimberly. Thanks for joining me today as we turn our eyes outside to a common sight, the lawn, that iconic patch of green outside so many North American homes may look harmless, but it's one of the least sustainable features of modern life. From water waste to pesticide use, the suburban lawn is basically an environmental money pit, disguised as curb appeal. In part one, we're digging into why lawns become the default, what it costs to maintain that look and how this small square
grass plays a surprisingly big role in everything from water scarcity to climate change. So Kimberly, did you grow up with one of those perfectly mowed suburban lawns or were your family more of a dandelions or flowers to household?
Kimberly (00:48)
⁓ We weren't necessarily one or the other per se, I don't think, but I know we were in like chemical treatment lawn people.
you know, mowed grass, if there were dandelions, whatever. But I don't remember anyone being like, I was the flower child in my family, think. I was born at the wrong time for sure. And so, one thing my mom did do was she put a huge vegetable garden, like over a section of our lawn. And so that was even better, in my opinion, having a lawn and I didn't do any of the work either. She did all of it it was like a labor of love for her. And so it was really cool because we had awesome vegetables out of it.
Jorden (01:24)
Yeah, that was a big thing for us. It was always a giant garden. I remember the first house my parents actually got, it was in a new development. So we moved in. The front had like seeded grass, but the back was a complete kind of dirt pit. And everybody asked them like, oh, when are you going to put the grass and everything? And my parents just walled the entire thing off for garden. Basically gave you a walkway from the gate to the door and the rest of the yard was a garden. And they're like, what do you mean? They've already, they built the garden for us. Why would we do anything with it?
Kimberly (01:55)
That's awesome. I have a neighbor who he over the years since we've lived here, he he has a side yard ⁓ and he's basically vegetable and fruit tree to the whole. it's not even that big. And it's amazing what he's been able to do in the in the size of the space. And I've talked to him a few times and he said, you know, like people thought it was kind of weird that he did this. I I think it's too cool that you've done this. And he just liked for him. It's loves doing it.
Jorden (02:23)
kind of food forest idea. think that is, we're going to get into that in part two, as it becomes more common. But you're right, for most people, the norm really has become a nice lush green grass that was not meant to grow in the climate that you're growing it. And this really starts, you know, out of Europe and the aristocracy and was brought
primarily in North America and started with you some of the founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are famous for promoting that kind of lawn aesthetic.
Kimberly (02:53)
Well, the thing is, that the aristocracy, not only did they not need to work the land, but they actually could afford people to maintain it for their pleasure and bragging rights rather. So I think that's really interesting. And I always think of like also, big gardens like in Versailles, just how amazing that any sort of mansion, palace, whatever, and the gardens that they have. that's definitely where all of this comes from, trying to emulate that, I think.
Jorden (03:19)
No, and I think the other interesting thing is it actually is more even of a French tradition. And the English over time definitely adopted that, but when you go back and look, the original English garden is more of an unkempt garden. Even in the manors, we're more like building the forest in.
⁓ And so I think it's interesting though that like while so much of the English tradition was brought forward in America, when the kind of elite of the time we're looking around, they look to the French model for that highly controlled almost and it gets to it's an almost sterile look at the end, right?
Kimberly (03:53)
Very
manicured, yes, very much so. I prefer personally the English garden myself, but the French gardens are really impressive.
Jorden (04:02)
And then for a long time, did not really take off. Again, even in America, we had land to do it. was as you said, you had to work the land. You had the money to have somebody do it. I was really surprised to find out when the first lawnmower was invented. so it was 1868 and the sprinkler system right after that in 1871.
Kimberly (04:24)
surprised to see that one too. Yeah, that's quite early.
Jorden (04:26)
It's a weird period of like the 1860s to the early 1900s where things like jeans and like playing cards and all these things are invented that you think of as like 19 like or like the in the 1900 or 20th century. But no, it was kind of right around that Civil War period as lawnmowers are coming out.
Kimberly (04:42)
Well, the one difference that the American version of the European aristocracy had with the lawns was it depended on slave labor, which was not the case for the Europeans. you know, I know that, you know, this was like all of it was hand done before this happened. And thankfully, you know, slavery ended by the time the lawn more and more thankfully, but also, unfortunately, for the slaves who were doing all this by hand. I actually ⁓ visited when I was in Angkor Wat in Cambodia.
I distinctly recall laborers out cutting grass by hand. They're bent over with like manual hedge trimmers ⁓ because no doubt it was cheaper to hire them to do that because they, know, more so than affording the machinery. And even if they could afford the machinery, the fuel is just prohibitively expensive. And so you could hire, they could hire these people to do basically the same job, but it was so, so strange to see this and just really kind of disheartening. But at the same time,
Here are people who wouldn't have a job if they were mechanized out of it.
Jorden (05:45)
Well, and we saw that actually, right, in the English context of how much farm labor was destroyed the second you start mechanizing some of those really labor intensive jobs. ⁓ But, you know, going forward from that time, it really wasn't till World War Two and the kind of suburban boom that this got locked in and cemented. And I know my entire life growing up with American movies and media, just that that image of rows of houses with everyone with their patch of grass, I really think it is like
Almost the ultimate symbol of each man is to your castle kind of mentality because you know your castle your little home with your private kind of garden and grassland we really kind of made everybody have a mini estate.
Kimberly (06:27)
I thought it was interesting to find that part of what inspired this and after World War II where it really picked up was that the first golf course was built in the United States in 1888, which I thought was really weird because that's quite late, I would have thought by comparison. That actually increased the popularity of having a lawn. Then by the time you get to the post-war suburban boom and see this with the little boxes, everybody with their lawn and stuff.
There's also really interesting, I taught a course on popular culture, politics and culture. it ⁓ was interesting because there are actually a lot some some songs, one one song that strangely critiques like this sort of lifestyle, besides little boxes was
by the Monkeys last train to Clarksville. If you actually listen to it, who would think of the Monkeys as this social critique, criticism, sort of ban? Not at all. But it's really interesting to listen to some of the lyrics of their songs to find out that they were actually criticizing like the whole idea of what that kind of life was like.
Jorden (07:34)
I this is completely an aside, but I've been rewatching MASH and actually completely aside. So I apologize to the audience, but I've been thinking a lot about how things that we think of as just normal or take for granted as part of popular culture were considerably radical at the time. And even if they had been remade today and updated the like just the so like using the MASH context that I was thinking about, if this was about the Afghanistan war.
But you kept all of the same, like some of the anti-racism messages, the anti-homophobia. ⁓ And you updated that. would be considered like an incredibly radical show and like offensive in the moment. But it's all from the 60s. So it was just, yeah, no, you wouldn't. A lot of these things you wouldn't think of. You just sing the lyrics. You grow up with it. And like, no, this is actually like a really strong social critique.
Kimberly (08:20)
Yeah. And what about women there? So, yeah, I forget that one sometimes, don't we? One of us never does. So, yeah, so was really interesting, I think, which is to see the development of lawns. And this has really become a cultural and psychological like we have this attachment to this and the social status. And there is a sociologist, Paul Robbins, who wrote Lawn People in 2007. And it had
already been researching our relationship with lawns and how they're causing ecological anxiety. And that wasn't 2007 that that was published. this is something that, you know, there's been some criticism about this for some time just to see the impact that having this, this has had on human beings, because in some ways, there's, you know, the social inequities going on and
Jorden (09:14)
Well, and I remember the first time I thought about lawns as like an actual thing. And I don't want to say it other than that. And it wasn't till I went to China in 2013. And at the end of my three months there, I come home and it wasn't till I got home and I saw all the grass again that like it struck me so vividly. And in that, like just like, you know, those ideas that kind of slap you in the face realized I hadn't seen grass other than.
a bit of painted grass, because I was in the city that paints the grass, ⁓ in three months. And then getting back, and it's almost like there was so much of it that my eyes were like just the emerald and the green everywhere. And it was really weird. like at first I was like, I love this. It's so pretty. But then it was the first time I'd actually stopped and thought about like, wait, do we need all of this space for grass and what's the cost of it? And it was just the first time that I'd been outside of the kind of cultural context of
the expectation that you have one.
Kimberly (10:12)
We certainly need the green space, right? We talked about that in a previous episode about sustainable cities and how more cities actually need to have more greenery, but not in the form of lawns. And yet, and yet that's that's like 80 % of US residential yards. there's a lot it takes up. I was stunned to see that this is basically the equivalent yards in the United States are basically the equivalent of the area of the state of Colorado.
Jorden (10:41)
In grass, yeah. And that it is, if you consider it a crop as a managed crop, it is the largest managed crop in America. So the country that we know produces more corn than anywhere, doesn't even compare to the amount of grass that is being managed and produced. So, I do want to say all the stats here on the acres of lawns actually are a bit out of date now. They come from a 2005 NASA study.
So if anyone from NASA is listening, please update this. Would love to see how this has grown over the last 20 years. But it's still being commonly cited in articles up to 2024. And when you kind of put it into the total context of all US land, so not even agri-gri-rable land where you can grow, but just all land, it's just shy at 1.9%, just shy of 2 % of all continental US land taken up by grass. And that's lawn, so that's not getting into
grass fields and other ways that we build out massive amounts of grass that is just in residential lawns.
Kimberly (11:42)
It's pretty amazing because then when we start talking about what it costs to maintain this and the number of people who aspire to have the perfect lawn, we start to get into some really scary environmental numbers here.
Jorden (11:56)
Yeah, I mean, just starting with the water, I think everybody, anybody who's lived through a drought, you know how quickly cities get real angry about, the residents not being able to water and the city because residents still water. And that's because 30 to 60 % of all urban freshwater in US cities, it goes to watering grass. Now that 60, that high end is in your arid landscapes. You you think New Mexico, Arizona.
⁓ Luckily, Vegas has switched and it does not allow residents to plant grass anymore and that's an amazing choice. But the thing that blew my mind about this is that of that water, 50 % of it is on average wasted. Not even going to actually growing the grass, I almost called them plants there. And it's just, it's a mind boggling amount of water to be running through.
Kimberly (12:42)
Well, isn't so this is in a turn here. I was looking up Canadian like fat figures, too. And so this isn't just a US issue. It's Canadian. It's European. It's it's developed world, right? Maybe with the exception of Japan, because it's just so densely populated. The cities are. But but there was a whole study done just on the impact of lawns in Sweden. So Australia, it's a huge problem in Australia as well and various European cities. But with with Canada.
Vancouver instituted lawn watering day to once a week starting in 2025 from May 1st to October 15th because they're already, by May 1st they already knew they were going to have water issues. And I know that for 2024 Calgary was in a stage four for most, as that's the most severe and then eased it to the stage three watering bands. But both were quite limiting because it was no sprinklers, no hose watering.
limited to hand watering and that was even limited, right? And obviously you live in Calgary so you could speak more to this than me, but I was really interested to see just, you know, looking at Canada and other places in the world where this was an issue.
Jorden (13:50)
is
definitely, as you said, it's a developed law. And I think that it's actually expected because it's a cultural trend that came out of Europe into America, was popularized and has grown. Right. You know, a lot of times we talk about things that are kind of American grown and then pushed out in the Calgary case. Actually, we had a water line rupture in our main water line, bringing water in from the dam to the city. So it took out something, I believe, like 30 percent of our water was was taken out. They got.
It was the worst water ban of my entire life. So I've definitely lived through a few drought times, you know, or like just a pressure on the water system. This got so bad. I actually was on my road trip when this kicked off. So I went away and I just planted a garden three days before this event happened. And so thankfully, you know, my father decided was watering the plants for me, but he's putting buckets in his shower in the morning.
because that was one of the only ways that if you were actually following the rules, is you could take your quick shower and then collect every little bit of extra water to try to go out and water the plants. And thankfully, he kept them alive.
Kimberly (14:57)
That's amazing. mean, that and that's we've talked before when we did our freshwater episode, just like rain barrels and gray water and so forth. And the fact, though, that so much of the water that is used for watering lawns, particularly, is just not even actually doing its job.
And so it's such a huge waste. And there's actually another kind of waste, which is yard waste. So we end up mowing, we end up like growing this and then we mow and then we've got all of these trimmings. And this was something also that we talked about with landfills because according to the EPA's most recent study that was done in 2018, 12 % of all municipal waste was yard primmings. And so, you know, on the upside, of that 22.3 million tons,
63 % of it was actually composted and 7 % of it was combusted into energy. like they're actually able to, you know, get people to sort it out, separate it out and then try to do something better with it. But the fact that we have so much of that, that's completely unnecessary to begin with. Yeah.
Jorden (16:03)
And then that's the thing is to your point, it's always great to see stuff composted, right? And we've talked about on the show before how my city of Calgary does, I think a really great composting system where you, know, for the first two months of the garden garden season, you can just go and get it for free. But to your point, it's actually that's a lot of resources that are being used. That's money, that's energy, that's more pollution all generated from something that we don't need. So it's not like it's a byproduct of overall eating and then there's compost from that. That's going to happen no matter what.
This is a deliberate choice to grow an ornamental crop.
Kimberly (16:37)
Yeah, and when it comes to chemicals and pollution, other types of waste, I had no idea that the surplus chemical gases and the US agency charged with making them for World War I was what inspired the Chemical Peace Service Agency to start experimenting with agricultural applications of these chemicals. And then after World War II rolls around and then you see this virgining of yards, and lawns.
there was another surge and it ended up becoming called the chemical core. And they were meant to develop pest control. They were charged with pest control for gardens and lawns, personal lawns. And so we see like these pesticides and herbicides and fertilizers just for the home garden, not for agricultural, right? And all of the problems that they cause with the runoff, with the algae blooms and the destroying ecosystems. And then we see...
that also this ends up in well water and it ends up in waterways and eventually some of this ends up in oceans and so it's like my gosh just terrible what we do in the name of like like this kind of beauty i don't even know if you can call this i mean some people okay obviously will tell you that a green carpeted lawn is the most beautiful thing you can see but i think that you know i would take the the native like grasses and so forth and the butterflies flying around
Jorden (17:57)
Well, a couple things there. One, is why whenever somebody like, you know, that crazy friend who comes to you and says, did you know the US government did this with the military in like 1960? I never just say no right away.
because it was a weird time. You know, you don't know actually what came out of the military. ⁓ But I think the second point is like, I can fully admit it looks great. A perfect like grass. I've walked out into some where it just looks serene because it's also those the best ones are also usually covered by trees. There's something else going on. And I don't think it's a case of does it look good? Sure.
It can also look beautiful and I agree with you, a lot more beautiful in much more natural ways. And I think that's the switching, right? Like not, I'm not going to tell anybody I disagree that the lawn's ugly. And I'd say that actually, if you don't take care of it, if you don't put all of these resources into it, most of us do think that dead rundown lawns are really ugly. Now, you know,
The nice thing is that there's a solution that uses less effort, that uses less water, that uses less your time, that you don't have to reseed every like the goes on and on. So that's the shift I make when I'm arguing with people about this is like, wait, do you want to spend the time? I remember a few years ago, my brother really got into the perfect lawn. Like he had some time on his hands. So he wanted to be one of those guys that had the like, you know, baseball, multiple mode kind of patches, the right color and everything.
And I think he spent like it was getting to the point of like 20 hours a week. And again, he had time on his hands, but it was like we came a part time job, had a perfect lawn for the year. And at the end of it, I was like, oh, how do you feel? he's like, waste of time. You know, like a lot because it's just it's going to be next year. If I do nothing, it'll look like bad. You have to do this every year for the thing for me is on the pesticide. Sorry to get back to that is just.
how much of it is, as you said, making it into us, like again, through our food, through the water system. A CDC study found pesticides in 100 % of participants tested, and they tested over 9,000 people in that study with an average of 13 pesticides per person. I don't wanna have context for this, and this could be one of those things where it's like, ah, Jordan, 13 pesticides is nothing, but that doesn't sound like nothing.
Kimberly (20:19)
Can you add that to the plastic that's in us? mean, like, what are we actually made of these days?
Jorden (20:23)
Yeah, yeah, go back to our plastics episode for the amount of what's going in there. Yeah, and actually, that's a good point. I mean, we've already hit on water and chemicals, and these have come up in other episodes. And as we were going, we were going to hit biodiversity next and carbon. was lawns almost were becoming a symbol in my mind as we were researching this of kind of our current environmental problems and the fact that we won't
fix it in the face of all the evidence, it seemed like a microcosm for the macro that is climate change.
Kimberly (20:53)
Well, I thought it was, mean, you obviously the DDT was actually developed for by the chemical core after World War II. That was one of those things. And it was, you know, Rachel Carson's research that uncovered the effects of on water and wildlife and even humans. And then it led to its eventual ban in 1972 when people started like, you know, the EPA comes around and people start thinking, wait, what are we actually doing here? Maybe we should rethink this because if we don't do something and this is where we're at now.
especially based on what you just said, sort of like a microcosm of like all of our environmental and sustainability issues wrapped into one here. We're gonna end up with a biodiversity desert if we aren't already like how far there, right?
Jorden (21:33)
Well, and that's why I wanted to mention too, ⁓ green spaces in cities, because I don't think all green spaces created equal. Like if we're creating those kind of in Canada, we called them dry ponds. They were basically like a large kind of dugout could be a pond, but they were there for like flood control. So it could be flooded. But they're basically giant domes of grass. Right.
that may seem like a green space. you think you see it, you think about it, you're like, oh, plants, nature is good. But when you dig a little deeper, it's actually less than 1 % of the same biodiversity as a meadow or a field that way in the natural state. And I was looking at some research and I was just first type of bird, but we found that below a minimum threshold of native plants, they just cannot support bird populations in that area.
And that really got me to think about like the amount of space in Calgary at least where it's like, oh, I thought this was a great area, but now I'm wondering actually it's a giant lawn. How much are we putting into it and getting almost nothing out of it other than thinking we've got some green.
Kimberly (22:40)
Yeah, and then when we turn to the air and carbon impacts, this was really amazing to see when we look at lawn care devices and lawn maintenance. my gosh, just across the board, horrible.
Jorden (22:56)
This is in the worst kind to the particulate emissions, like the actual stuff that's driving the smog and the kind of ⁓ health impacts on the ground, which is it's funny. That's the one area that almost everywhere around the world, people end up put like the populace will push back on because it hurts your life. Right. And so for the one for me was the gas leaf blower. mean, I think everybody hates these, except for the person wearing them, because they're the most obnoxious things in the world.
But one hour of running that gas leaf blower puts off the same particulate emissions as 1,100 miles in a car.
Kimberly (23:34)
I would ban, I swear I would ban Leaf, but I think they are the most obnoxious, noisiest, I can't stand being around them.
Jorden (23:42)
Yeah, no, mean, it's a brooms and rakes are fine. there's there's I'm a anybody who knows me and is listening will know I can be a pretty lazy person. I'll own it. But a broom and a rake are fine for these kind of things. Or I mean, at the very least, I'd say that every lawn maintenance tour tool has a good electric option now.
Kimberly (24:03)
And that's the thing. So I looked into this and gas powered lawn equipment is far more taxing on the environment. They're like twice as much in carbon emissions, CO2 emissions an hour, eight times more nitrogen oxides, 5,000 times more hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. And since the average lawn is a quarter of an acre, an old fashioned push plate like would suffice for most people. So like there's that.
But when it comes to gas versus electric mowers, Consumer Reports did an extensive study and comparison in terms of like, ⁓ how's it caught? you know, like all of those, like everything you could want to know about like what a lawnmower, how a lawnmower performs. And they found very little difference between the two in overall performance. But electric mowers were easier to handle, less stinky. They were less expensive, especially as battery prices are dropping.
much quieter and better for the environment. And if you just look at noise pollution alone for gas mowers, it's more than double the decimal level than electric mowers. we're talking about like, and then, you then you look at what lawns emit and then you start, you know, like that's not even like including the lawns and all of the other stuff. This is just literally the mower.
Jorden (25:22)
Yeah, that's in, I couldn't find an updated stat. so I was looking at, found a stat on the amount of gas that was spilt by lawnmowers and people. And we're talking in the hundreds of thousands of gallons. It was again, 15 years out of date. So didn't want to bring it in there today, but it's kind of one those funny things. We're always trying to get people switch and think about like, how do we sell it? What's the benefit on all these products?
And this is just such a no-brainer to me. I mean, it's easier for you, it's lighter, you're not gonna fight with it. know, again, if you've got a kid who starts doing it at 10, like they can actually remember my experience, the gas lawnmower at 10, it was not fun. Your neighbors are gonna love you, you're gonna be less of an obnoxious person, and you get an environmental benefit. and you save money. Like this is one of those ones where on lawn maintenance, have, you cannot tell me,
a good reason not to switch to electric unless you just want to be obnoxious and I will stand on.
Kimberly (26:22)
I'm with you. Yeah, we used to have a very large line. it's not, I mean, and we use it because we've got dogs and so we play with them out in the yard. so for us, this is an important thing. And for a bit, for a while, we had a landscaper who would come and that was actually really efficient because they were able to do it really quickly, right? And they're refilling the tank less often and all those sorts of things. However,
when we decided to ditch our landscaper, we went to a push like a push blade mower. Then after, you know, my spouse got worn out a little bit too often from that, we got an electric mower and like, wow, it is such a more pleasant experience. And even the quick how quickly the the landscapers could come through and do it is like by comparison, it is such a like I am far less discommoded. And it's just such a like.
Get an electric mower, do it, just do it.
Jorden (27:22)
No, I mean, should we should we have your spouse on quickly to verify if the no, I agree. I mean, we kept ours for the gas more for such a long time. And then you went to my brother because it was just like one of those older like an 80s. But it always ran, never failed. But it got to the point there where even that the what you're spending on gas for that in a year just would have been saved and by the electric. Right.
Kimberly (27:47)
Especially when he decided to be blonde man.
Jorden (27:53)
I mean, honestly, it was that year that convinced me that I'd never have a good lawn because because of the amount that he actually had to do to get a perfect lawn.
Kimberly (28:01)
Like you said, like a part-time job. And when you look at lawns, they also emit five to six times more carbon dioxide, carbon dynox dioxide, I guess that one's your two, than what is absorbed by photosynthesis. you've got that and they say, well, you've got the lawn because it's doing the same thing. No, everything else does a better job at sequestering and soaking up than what grass is going to do.
Jorden (28:26)
Well, and one of the big reasons here is that, you know, sorry, the types of grasses, these ornamentals that we're growing ⁓ aren't native plants. They don't have deep root structures and a lot of soil ⁓ like carbon sequestration depends on how extensive your roots are and how deep they're penetrating. And that's why anything that's really shallow, basically the second that you're tilling those roots up and they can decompose, you've lost that benefit, right? ⁓
And so that's one of the big reasons I think that even as I was looking into this, I started looking at grasses that are still green, that are still not native, but are almost that in between. So like we're doing using Kentucky bluegrass.
Kimberly (29:05)
The
stuff that we have in our yard, exactly. Much more durable. It's better for traffic and dogs. And you don't have to, I mean, it's still green. Even if you have some drought, like it takes a lot, you know, it's after where we live, it gets quite dry. Usually August into September, we go weeks without rain. And it isn't until kind of the end of that, that it really starts to look almost dead. But it always comes back. It's always good. But the root structure is such.
that it doesn't we don't have to water it because if you've just got the stuff that's where your roots are kind of tiny they can't they don't have the ability to go further into the ground to retrieve that water so yeah they're going to need a lot of water and maintenance that way.
Jorden (29:46)
Well, that's the thing. even, you know, we're to go into cool things that are happening in this space and alternatives in the next episode. And that's really exciting. But I also think this is another one where, like in all sustainability issues, you can look at it and say, OK, I don't.
I'm not there personally. I don't want to go to the rewild yard or all that way. But you can do grass better. Again, you can electrify the the your maintenance inputs. You can look at grass strands, this strain story that need less water that you know, you can switch to not using chemical pesticides and fertilizers like these are all kind of I'd say the first step towards getting to a sustainable lawn without having to fully give up that grass if you're just not there.
Kimberly (30:31)
Well, and you know, like I think that, you know, I struggle with the if something's in perfectly good shape, is it worth trading it in? Like, is it worth getting rid of the gas mower if you have, you know, something that functions? I struggle with that because, you know, that's where you have to really start considering the, you know, where do you draw the line for sustainability purposes? But you can certainly be more responsible and spill less gas. And I suppose there are other things that you could do, not mow as often, you know, things like that.
And, you know, I don't know, I don't have an answer to that one.
Jorden (31:05)
I think that comes back to a concept we talked a lot about on this show is in any sustainability question, there's trade-offs among different dimensions. That's why I always go back to what is your biggest sustainability issue or your set of big issues? I think that will help with that decision. Four different people completely committed to living a sustainable life could come out with a different answer on that decision based on those kind of what criteria they're prioritizing.
But I honestly think that kind of makes it hard sometimes to have these conversations or to say, well, this is why I did this. And somebody else can feel like, well, that's unsustainable because you're not prioritizing, well, their waste, right? You want everybody to throw out all this perfectly good metal. It's not going to be recycled. Think about the embodied energy. I could make a case for why it's horrible. I could.
Kimberly (31:55)
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing. Like, that's why I feel bad. Like what I said earlier is like, you know, just change the electric. That's my own complete personal bias because I can't stand the noise. We have a neighbor who I swear like actually got rid of some trees and stuff just so he could have a bigger and it is enormous on. And I joke with, you know, Michael that that we this person just loves to mow. Like I swear, like every chance that they, you know, if it rains, would say, oh, I bet they're really disappointed that they could go out and mow today. So it's like all they do is mow. And so, yeah, this is my absolute own personal like
I hate the noise and so.
Jorden (32:28)
Well, I mean, it's funny, I was I listened to a lot of political podcasts and over the July 4th weekend there, you know, they all, especially the conservative ones I listened to, had to do their America's great kind of podcasts. And one of them, it was just the two hosts. They did a straight hour on what's why America is the best and what about America is the best. ⁓ It's really funny to listen to as a Canadian.
Kimberly (32:51)
Say
lawns must have been on the list, right?
Jorden (32:53)
Ride on lawnmowers specifically were on the list. The ability to own a big machine that is just there for you to mow your grass at your leisure, to drink a beer while doing it, was like top two for one of the hosts. was not even stretching at like 10 or something.
Kimberly (33:11)
The number of people who I have seen with minuscule yards who have a riding mower is just it's like that's certainly a comment and it absolutely goes back to what we said. Not only do you get to be able to afford have the privilege of having the lawn, even though it's only a quarter of an acre, you also can afford the riding mower.
Jorden (33:31)
Well, exactly. mean, you talked about the affordability of it and some of those kind of socioeconomic tensions. And I think that's kind of the best place to end this because, you know, there's lots of people in North America and Europe who can't afford houses that actually have their own space. you know, anybody in an apartment building is not getting that. In townhouse where I live, actually my yard is concrete except for my little garden. No grass, though. They give you a patch in the front. That's not yours, technically.
⁓ But even for those of us who might want to change out these yards, as we'll talk about, you run into homeowners associations, you run into city zoning on it. mean, I remember one of the worst times of getting in trouble in my childhood was when my parents got the notice that if the lawn wasn't mowed in the next week, they would be getting a fine. I didn't understand why the city could come and do that. The lawn looked good.
Kimberly (34:27)
I read about a woman in Springfield, Illinois, who was fined $150, and this was in 2023, for violating the city ordinance for growing native plants and grasses because they were over 10 inches tall. so there's a big push, right? There are, course, practical reasons for these city ordinances regarding lawn care, right? They look unkempt. They affect neighbors' housing prices, the neighborhood housing prices in some cases, right? They always appear to be that rundown house.
Even though the house could be beautiful, all you see first, right, it's that curb appeal factor. It obstructs views, you know, their potential dump sites. People think that it increases like the bugs and the vermin and stuff and so forth. But studies have been done that actually show that by having native plants and so forth, that it can actually decrease unwanted pests because their natural predators are present. So that's actually, that's inaccurate.
And there's also the difference between unmanaged vegetation and, you that you just don't mow and it just looks unsightly. ⁓ But there are more local environmental groups now who are pushing for the right to have native garden registries and encourage that sort of rewilding of lawns and so forth. And, but again, I think this raises issues of class and race and also water rights, because we talked about this in the water episode too, ⁓ water diversion fits into these issues.
that population growth and riparian rights, and especially in the West of the United States, ⁓ these are increasingly problematic. so like all of these things are again, the important part of sustainability that oftentimes gets definitely overlooked. And sometimes even by me, I'm sometimes guilty of this. ⁓ Just I mean, I'm always pushing for especially when it comes to fair trade and, you know, equal rights and labor and so forth. But when we start looking at other aspects of just
equal access and equality and all of the people who are in not privileged people. And I always again, sort of focus on global South countries, but it absolutely happens in our own case, not to be funny, but backyard, right?
Jorden (36:39)
No, 100%. And I think like a great example of it is that kind of that lower income urban renter who might not have access, no, just does not actually have access to their own kind of green space. And this is where I think it gets back to cities actually building in more green space and better green space is the answer. Because I don't want it to become, ⁓ well, no one should get a lawn or no one should have that or not, you know, that there won't be some differences. But I think that if it just
If comes this thing that we separate off and say only rich people get to have this like perfect kind of distilled green thing, like that, that's really bad. And on the same hand as I don't want it to also be, ⁓ okay, well now rewilding is this next rich fad, right? Like I think that sometimes too, also when we look at the solution, we don't think about how implementing the solution can actually run into issues of class and race and how...
A, if we're going to move to a broader understanding of what a lawn can look at like, then it's not just going to be our native plants rewild lawn. It's not going to be my food forest. The other thing about, I think, breaking down that kind of cultural standard is then being okay with a hundred different varieties. And that's awkward sometimes.
Kimberly (37:54)
Well, and I think that, you know, actually, one of the reasons I started writing the Substack Post, here I am pushing it again, was because the episode that we did, episode eight, was on sustainable cities and green spaces.
I wanted to go more into the numbers and the details with this. And so that's I started writing the Substack Post. And so if people can go back and look at that, but when you look at average green space per person in New York City, like again, one of those cities where there are a lot of apartment buildings and high rises and so forth. So having Central Park is really important, right? So when you look at that 146 square feet per person,
But if you look at Rotterdam, Netherlands, also a city that's built up in the same sort of like houses next to each other, not a lot of garden space, 755 square feet per person. So that's humongous difference. London is sort of on par with New York City. Beijing, China though, as you said and had visited, like 67 square ⁓ feet per person. But when you start looking, develop countries like Nigeria and Lagos.
60, less than 10 square feet of green space per person. And that's sort of like, I think in my mind at least, that's kind of what it's like for people who live in poor areas of cities that they just don't have. Or they could live in a more rural-y area, but still live in apartments, suburbs, they're still living in apartment buildings. And so that inequity is there.
Jorden (39:26)
And again, this gets to issues of broader city design, which like a great plug for the city episode when Mike was still hosting. Yeah, I got to enjoy that one. ⁓ So.
I guess, of laying out and looking, you know, we started out and I didn't pull punches in the intro. These are, you know, ecological nightmares masquerading in Kez Curb Appeal. I think going through this now, 40 minutes, anybody who's kind of didn't know that long, how bad lawns were should have a sense of it. But how does it leave you at the end of the episode? Kind of, how are you feeling?
Kimberly (40:02)
I think this is one of those things that you said that the first time you thought about Wands, I don't know that I ever actually really thought about Wands like per se in a sustainability way until you suggested this as an episode. And I thought, well, yeah, of course this totally makes sense because now, especially after everything we've covered. And so I don't know. mean, this is such a culturally embedded thing in the United States and it's just such a huge percentage of the actual land of the United States.
for so many people who aspire to the American dream and having a house, even if it's a little boxes house, that that's still something that's part and parcel of that. So I don't know how hopeful I am on this one. I think where my hopefulness comes in is some of what we talked about with.
the shift and it's certainly what we're going to talk about in the second episode. So people should stay tuned. I'll come back next week for the second part because of actually shifts out of necessity that some cities are making like Las Vegas, what they have done, other places that are realizing this is just not tenable. So something needs to happen.
Jorden (41:11)
Yeah, I think that's that that's the great one is that we're seeing at the policy like a grassroots level. Right. There's that city level driving it. The thing for me on this one is thinking to like that 1868 the lawnmower didn't have really have lawns before that. Right. I mean, they were were there as we talked about. But it was for the elite of the elite. And it took one hundred and fifty years, roughly, to become this like just ingrained thing.
And a big part of that, as we talked about, was how it was packaged and sold with the post-war American dream. And so maybe not off this episode, but as we go into the next one, we're talking about all the different ways that it can be done. I think that there's a unique opportunity with this one that can tie into some of the cultural change that's going on right now with this drive for individualism and everybody making like their version of their own life, right? Like your marriage should be yours, your job or your career is yours. Sure, everybody's doing one, but do it your way.
And I think that there's maybe over the next hundred years a really interesting way this gets packaged and sold as part of the new kind of like modern Western dream, right? Your life, your way, your yard almost. ⁓
Kimberly (42:19)
Well, I think too maybe something that could be hopeful is even if more people become aware of this and recognize what an issue this is, perhaps maybe more people will at least designate part of that grasp to something that is a little bit more eco-friendly without actually having to lose the lawn and you can still use your, know, writing mower.
Jorden (42:45)
Yeah, and I mean, there's also just simple ways to shift this. Like, again, if water, if all water is metered, right? Like, that's a simple shift right there.
Kimberly (42:53)
I mean, that is not like that is so the number of times I've taken students to the greater Cincinnati Water Works and this is just a like, if this ever comes up for tax, like on the ballot, nothing like this is not something that is ever going to change. Like they're just like they work at a loss. They just it's just the way it is because people will not stand for increases in tax increases in the price of water. It's crazy.
Jorden (43:19)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. But I think you also see it. This is where I agree with you. I think climate change is going to be an interesting one in that. think that never goes. And we've seen it go away in cities that do face consecutive drought conditions and stuff. So I think, you know, especially where I am in Calgary, we don't worry about it, right? We have.
Kimberly (43:41)
We don't either where I am, I am too. Like this is not something and yet people still, mean, water is a pittance here and people still won't even like one cent, two cents. Oh, we can't possibly live with that. So I don't know. So if you enjoyed this episode of Sustainable Planet or even if you didn't and you have your writing mohair in or really pissed off after listening to this, let us know. You can send those to Jordan. He will feel those questions at splanetpod at gmail.com.
We're also on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. You'll find our show notes along with additional resources from today's episode and my sub stack posts on our website at splanetpod.com. If you have the time, please rate, review, particularly if you have great things to say about us on your app. And thanks for listening and have a sustainable day.
