Planned into Obsolescence: Deliberately Designed to Fail

Ever wondered why your grandparents' furniture is still standing while your furniture barely makes it through one move? In the capitalist competition to grow, corporations prioritize profits over durability. Following their episodes on landfills, Jorden and Kimberly consider why so much stuff ends up in the waste management stream. Part I begins the story in the 1920s, when lightbulb companies realized they were potentially sitting on a goldmine if they only made a few tweaks, starting the corporate trend of planned obsolescence.

Key Topics Jorden and Kimberly discuss include

• How one lightbulb made us believe we were being duped

• Why every industry does it, everyone knows they do, but they still get away with it

• Why no one is spared in the pursuit of obsolescence, even Henry Ford

• How many varieties of one product do we really need

• Whether it’s possible to enumerate how many strategies MNCs use to gain an edge

• How planned obsolescence fits right in with our disposable culture

• Why profit-driven design beats quality manufacturing almost every day, but some companies have bucked the trend and live to tell about it

Recommended Resources

• About Planned Obsolescence

• Practices in the computer industry that widely apply

• The environmental impact of planned obsolescence

• Your New $3,000 Couch Might Be Garbage in Three Years. This Is Why.

• Kimberly’s Substack newsletter post

How long will it last?

Episode Transcript

KIMBERLY

Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist, Kimberly Weir, and my co -host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues. Following up on our episode on landfills, in part one of Planned Obsolescence, we examine why so much stuff is destined for landfills. One might think that living in such a technologically sophisticated time, we'd make fewer purchases, not more. Instead, we find ourselves regularly replacing everything from smartphones to clothing. So Jordan, did you ever think you'd see the day when furniture would be planned into obsolescence, now considered a disposable product?

JORDEN

It's been really interesting watching over my lifetime. I remember, you know, growing up with the furniture around my grandparents' house was all very strong, sturdy, incredibly heavy furniture. You know, going forward into like what my parents were buying and now into the stuff that's furnishing my home and seeing the quality go down, but also in some ways. the amount of furniture we have increasing. Like I think about moving out now and seeing like my cousins who are in their early 20s moving out and what they can set up on a relative budget. So it's been interesting seeing the pros and the cons of it as we moved into this system.

KIMBERLY

Yeah, I remember my grandparents too had like a television set that was like a piece of furniture, like actually wooden, like real wooden finished cabinet fixture, you know, part of the house. And I definitely agree with you. In fact, a lot of the furniture we have is either antique that was passed down, just sort of ended up with, or my husband, his father was like very handy. He actually had a construction business. And then in his retirement, he started building furniture. And so we have a lot of really good quality furniture. Yeah, thanks to him. But definitely, I think. When I was before I met him and was furnishing the stuff that I didn't get that was antiques when I had to like buy bookcases and stuff like that. Definitely. If I couldn't find something at the at the used Salvation Army store or whatever, then definitely it was like Ikea.

JORDEN

Yeah. No, I mean, mine's a blend. I have love seats and couches from my grandparents when they passed away. But then most of the from the desk that I'm sitting on to the bookcases behind me are Ikea. Use a few tips, like tricks to make them last longer. You know, you can glue them together with wood glue yourself, put extra supporting screws in. There's things you can do. But at the end of the day, the actual particle board is never going to have the same quality as a piece of maple.

KIMBERLY

And that's exactly what we're talking about with planned obsolescence, even for furniture and couches, even even sofas and couches and so forth. The lifetime expectation is that you will cough up. like $3 ,000. And yet in five years, that thing will be landfilled. And it's not about having furniture that lasts longer or even having people who are reupholsterers who would change out the upholstery for the change and deciding to redo your decor or whatever. But it's about intentionally designing products to be less long lasting. And while technological devices are the obvious ones we think of, it actually pervades every industry and and this is because of a sort of a few things but corporations certainly realize that this is the best way to make more money in saturated markets and they are the safest markets actually for for companies to focus on because even though There are 164 countries in the world that actually need to have more consumer goods. And certainly we see more of this with the emerging economies, but certainly 132 countries in the world who really would benefit, have an improved quality of standard of living with more consumer goods. Those are not the safer markets, certainly not the developing countries, a little bit more so with various places and emerging economies, but global north countries are it.

JORDEN

Yeah, it's really interesting. It's linked to an economic concept called rent seeking behavior, economic rent seeking. So in that it's using political or social systems to extract economic value. Planned obsolescence is trying to extract value without necessarily creating new value in the same way. And I found it funny because they also go hand in hand. You know, firms often use their political pressure in global north countries to. keep laws away that would force them to make better products, as we'll talk about later. So overall, it is a way to get value out of the system without them having to put in as much value as they might have, you know, 32. Well, even 100 years ago, I think as I was looking into the history of this, it's interesting how the 1920s and 30s really across multiple industries spurred along this idea of planned obsolescence. And it is the idea that.

KIMBERLY

it is the idea that. If you can get somebody to buy more of the same thing more frequently or have more brand products, one brand that someone has brand loyalty to, and then make more products in that same line, like Quaker Oats makes granola bars and prepackaged granola or prepackaged oatmeal in containers that you can take away, things like that.

JORDEN

I think the worst one is what is being done to Oreos at this point. It was fun at first to have birthday cake Oreos. But now, I mean, like 32 plus flavors of weird things inside an Oreo is not what we need. And I don't think anybody would really call that innovation at this point.

KIMBERLY

And that's the thing. And that's a big criticism, too, for like especially smartphones and iPhones. And I know that Apple had been at the sort of directed this controversy against them for a while. that they just kept putting out the next version but there was really nothing innovative about the next version and so people end up with upgrades but the upgrades are not really anything that people necessarily need and oftentimes things that people don't even necessarily want because it just makes like you have that whole learning curve again of okay where do I find this thing I'm trying to reset because I liked what it used to be like.

JORDEN

And so one of the things I found interesting about this, though, is the car example. I know we're going to go into reasons why here, but I think that this is a great way into it. You look at Ford and GM when this really started in the 30s, and Ford actually resisted yearly models and yearly model updates where GM pursued it. And in the intervening decade after, GM... overtook the market now i think that there's a part of that is the they were actually innovating and six years later the car is different enough while the ford had stayed the same but i think it also speaks to a bit of human behavior like and and taking advantage of our desire for the new and shiny and so even going back you know 100 years ago that that profit motivation was being shown to businesses that this will be rewarded by the market and i It's one of those things that you can see why it starts out. And then you look ahead 100 years in the system it's produced. I don't think anybody would go back and choose it. Right. Even though it might have seemed rational at the time to get the new, you know, 1936 GM over the 35.

KIMBERLY

Well, I think, too, especially now in this day and age, it's very difficult to undo because everything else in society now is instantaneous gratification. And we've talked about in other episodes, too, about. how commodity fetishism, various facets of commodity fetishism, and why it is that we have an attention span of a flea. It's not our fault. And everything I read, you know, being an academic, that everything about student attention span and just like now, I just read something two days ago about how more and more young people, especially just don't have the actual capability to sit. and read anything of length because that is not how they communicate. It is not how they operate on a daily basis. So it's the number of schools now that assign novels, for example. It's like unless you're an English literature major, you need to expect that your students are going to do that, the select few. You can't get students to read anything of any length. And those are people who are already... smarter than the rest of society. Everybody else is out there and already over inundated and busy and so forth. And some of them just don't even have the education to be able to do some of this stuff.

JORDEN

Well, I mean, already in my generation, I know a lot of friends who, you know, maybe the last novel they read was one that was assigned. Right. And I think that they're, you know, going back to why do companies do this? Right. And I think you hit on it. A big one is that steady revenue stream. Yeah, because if you know a new model is coming in, you look at iPhone models and as I was looking at it, they don't assume that you're going to upgrade every year, but they assume that you're going to upgrade every two years to three years. But all of their customers are split across years. So it becomes every year there is a batch of their customers that reliably updating and it almost becomes. a de facto subscription model to a physical product where where you're paying up front to it without, you know, feeling like you're getting into that. And that's a really valuable commodity for a business to have because that was their stock price goes to their long term planning.

KIMBERLY

Well, yeah. And since this is the industry norm and it's do or die, you either compete in this same model or you're put out of business or swallowed by some other company if you can't.

JORDEN

And the thing that I think is interesting is, you know, later I'm really excited to highlight some companies that are bucking this trend, but it's also just some good old fashioned risk aversion at work here. Because for the CEO and the management team of that company to propose a wildly new strategy to say, hey, we're not going to do this anymore. We're going to go a new way, might become a luxury brand. That could work. And there's examples we'll show. But if it fails, it's on you and that management team. You did something risky. If you pursue a strategy that you're jazzing up as being, you know, innovative and competitive, but really it's the industry norm. It's within what the board will expect and shareholder expect. There's less like of a risk for you to lose your job if that doesn't go as well. So there's just some good like that. I think we think about companies sometimes as the big amalgamations. But really, there's a senior management team that's facing the same kind of human drives as the rest of us. And that really leads into this.

KIMBERLY

Well, and they're beholden to stockholders. The stockholders don't like what's going on. That's going to be reflected. And then and so it's I always, you know, when teaching would say to my students, we vilify corporations like all these evil things. But but how many people have retirement plans who have stockholdings as part of their portfolio? And are just going to be in just as bad shape if the company fails.

JORDEN

I know exactly. We don't think about the interactions. And I mean, I think a lot of things with companies and shareholders and pushing that around is a shell game where you can keep pushing blame off to different groups to say where no one has to take that accountability.

KIMBERLY

For sure. For certain. Yeah. And so when we come to how companies actually plan products out of operation and use, this is really interesting because there are a variety of ways they do this. It seems like one of the main strategies is to just sort of gradually implement limitations so that people don't necessarily realize that they're being more and more limited. I don't think this is true for phones because my phone was perfectly fine and I had to get a new one because they weren't doing security updates anymore, which actually goes to sort of a second point, which is the shortened innovation cycles. Or they just won't support you anymore. Or your security, you're on your own, like you're at risk for everybody who wants to invade your phone because you're done. You're on your own. You need to buy a new one.

JORDEN

Yeah, I think the softer ones are more in your face. The hardware ones seem to be, or, you know, software that you don't see limiting hardware, you know, is the ones the printers are really bad for that. Or even just as I was looking into this, the amount of, you know, especially appliances that have replaced. dirt like durable parts with from metal to plastic in key wear areas so like there's perfectly places you can take the metal and turn into plastic to save weight to save cost that's not going to impact the life of it but when companies put a high wear product on a cheap plastic that's so that it will break like but you don't notice that you're never looking in there and it's not one day you looked at your old washing machine or your old dishwasher and you say hey why is this hinge now plastic that's never going to happen so it's really easy for this to you know just as you are upgrading and cycling it can get worse and for for some things too once you start paying attention you start to see oh like so i have a food processor and so i can't for a while i wasn't able to actually run it without putting a vice on the griff

KIMBERLY

for for some things too once you start paying attention you start to see oh like so i have a food processor and so i can't for a while i wasn't able to actually run it without putting a vice on the griff because it wasn't pushing in the right thing to make the motor actually turn because of the safety devices. So I realized if I put a vice on there, I could still use it. So the last time I was using it, the whole handle outside part of it fell apart just like in my hand. And I realized it was literally this one little plastic pin pushing into the bottom under the bowl, which was what was making the motor run. That was the whole entire device. That's all that was doing. And it was also plastic. So I was standing there because I needed to finish what I was doing. And I'm standing there pushing in this little tiny piece of plastic thing. And I'm like, well, OK, how practical is this? Well, I make almond butter in this. And so that has to go for minutes at a time. And do I really want to stand here for minutes at a time? So I looked and I can replace the bowl. But in terms of actually, I mean, that's something that shouldn't just be a piece of plastic that will fall apart in your hand after I don't know how many uses.

JORDEN

Well, no. And at the end of the day, product engineers know the wear rate of that and the sheer force on it and can actually calculate down to how long and how many operations this piece will last. Yeah,

KIMBERLY

Yeah, I wasn't keeping count, but next time, no.

JORDEN

Somebody can call them out on it, right? Yeah,

KIMBERLY

right. I was really surprised with printers. Like I knew that printers are just, that's always just to me seems like a scam to begin with. But not only do they design the ink cartridges that stop like full stop, even though there's more used to be you can maybe shake it. But now they know you can't shake it anymore after it stops after a certain page count. Then I didn't know this one, though, the internal counters that actually disabled the printer after a set number of uses. So after you've printed X number of pages over however long, it's just going to quit no matter what.

JORDEN

Yeah. So printing, I hate I love printing. I love. physical documents and especially in university i have this mad tendency i need red ink and like going over my own work with like a vicious pen and that's not even the most diabolical way they do this for me the most diabolical thing the printing industry has done is that a new printer with a half -size ink cartridge costs less than replacing an ink cartridge on the same printer and it's for sure yeah

KIMBERLY

for sure yeah

JORDEN

You know, because I like I go and I angrily buy my print cartridge. You know, there's already too many printers in this house. But I look at that big display of printers for, you know, 20, 30 bucks cheaper. And I know how many people can I rationally say are going to, hey, come spend more money over here with me on this for 20 percent extra printing when you could just have that new printer, plug it in and go.

KIMBERLY

It is that that one, the cost of printer cartridges and then the fact that it's just going to die out on you. Yes, that is a total market. I was really surprised, though, to find that Hewlett Packard is actually one of considered one of the greenest companies in the United States, one of the greenest producers because of their trying to get products back, like get their used products back to refer like whatever they do with the parts and so forth, which we'll talk about an entirely different episode. But that was something that that kind of shocked me because I just associate printers with just. terrible evil villains hey i mean it's a good example you can find you know companies trying in every industry and that and that's part of the two right is is that once we get past the sort of this market control of make repairs difficult or impossible and controlling

JORDEN

i mean it's a good example you can find you know companies trying in every industry and

KIMBERLY

that and that's part of the two right is is that once we get past the sort of this market control of make repairs difficult or impossible and controlling the repair parts available and using proprietary tools that aren't easy. You know, you most people have a screwdriver, even a Phillips head or flathead. But then when you start getting to Allen wrenches and Allen wrench sizes and so forth, and then other even specialty tools besides that, like. Right. I was going to say like Apple and most phones use a pentalobe screws,

JORDEN

I was going to say like Apple and most phones use a pentalobe screws, which I had. I own a lot of tools and there's a lot of tools in this house, as we'll talk about later, love repairing things. I never heard of a pentalobe screw. It's a five point flower shaped screw. That's like you need a special screwdriver that like I again. Yeah, we've got that too.

KIMBERLY

Yeah, we've got that too.

JORDEN

Yeah.

KIMBERLY

I thought the Allen wrenches were something, but nope, that's an entirely different thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so what would you get with that? And then the gluing and sealing of components instead of even using screws so that it makes it virtually impossible to break in. And if you do, you are at jeopardy risk of of actually ruining the device. Right. And that could void the warranty in some cases. But once you get through all of this, we have this whole plethora of excuses as to why companies say, oh, no, no, this is this is not what's really going on here.

JORDEN

Yeah. And it's funny, as I was going through this, it's as with anything, there's a range of excuses, right? From the just bad to the like, you have a good point there. I don't like how you're using it. But and I think like anything, it's probably why it's harder to change some of these systems. My the one that I'm going to start with is the one that hit me the most was actually on locking us into the environmental impact of the current product. If we're not currently constantly pushing and we're not going forward. And so this is more important for cars and appliances and stuff. But I thought now that it's a great excuse. It doesn't mean you need one every year, you know, and when you do a major update, you could do much better. But I want to start with one that was at least good before we have some fun really poking at some really bad excuses that they have.

KIMBERLY

Well, I think that that I mean, just ease of use. Right. If you are accustomed to a certain. way especially with the software or we had to get a new car as some people may recall because somebody decided to use the passing lane as a driving lane and plowed into me and so the my beloved our beloved toyota rav4 that was a 2011 or 10. was gone, you know, and that was one of those things too. Oh, the insurance company said, there's no way now it's just easier to get a new car than to try to fix this. Right. So right there we have that built in, but also that, that we ended up going from that at the time, because we were down to Labor Day weekend to get a new one that we also, during that time, didn't have, Toyota did not have any hybrid RAV4s available to us. So we ended up getting a Honda RAV4 or a Honda CRV and just like change, change, like driving that was like driving a spaceship, like for me. And so, so what I was used to and where everything was, and then on top of that, everything's more computerized and so forth. And so that, I mean, and there's like some actual safety concerns with that sort of thing, as opposed to you've been dropped into the Mac ecosystem and you are now used to having all of your things clouded to each other. linked and clouding, dropping things to other people through that system. I mean, OK, so that's practical. I mean, for some people, but that kind of sucks for us, doesn't it?

JORDEN

I mean, to a degree, I'm an Apple user, so I'm going to have a long time and I defend it for its ecosystem. So that one's a hard one for me.

KIMBERLY

going to have

JORDEN

one's a hard one for me. But no, but I think it's it's a good point about like. The jump in, you know, if you actually do, I'm going to frame that as a benefit. If you do make your things last longer, especially in the technology realm, if you can push it, it can be then really fun. It like so this is like the benefit here is I replace my phone. I try to go five years. That is my like or when the screen is like cutting my hand, that is because I'm bad for dropping my phone. So whichever one happens first. And a benefit of that is, A, I don't need a new phone every year. I don't use it for, again, I'm not landing a spaceship on the moon, so I think the computational power I have is pretty good. But it doesn't create almost this like delightful shopping experience when you're jumping six models up and it feels completely new. And you're like, it's wow. And you get to explore. And that's just different than when you're buying it every year. And that is not for me.

KIMBERLY

is not for me. That is not my experience is, oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to change. But we all know anybody who listens knows I'm the dinosaur between us. And just for me, this is like terror nightmares. And for you, it's like it is joy. So I'm glad at least one of us can delight.

JORDEN

we all

JORDEN

Yeah, but I mean, well, I mean, so do you think that, I mean, if the sustainability, if, you know, going, you know, previewing a new episode that later on, but if the impact of replacing that product was less and it could be done in a recyclable way, do you think you would enjoy that more, that casual update?

KIMBERLY

update? No, absolutely not. No. You just want it frozen in time.

JORDEN

You just want it frozen in time. Use what you have.

KIMBERLY

have. Yes, exactly.

JORDEN

But going back, one of the things I find that was actually, again, I'm going to use the words diabolical and nefarious a lot during this episode, because I think that that it really gets at some of how they get away with this. And one of the examples that you have highlighted is the safety features. say basically limiting their warranty to a certain amount of years based on the product when both the design of that product and the you know where of that is within their ability to control so i think that that is it's a way of making you feel like you need to do something for your family or yourself to like live better when again it really is just driving to buy another product well i don't i don't buy the fact that that my phone can't actually be updated with safety features i think it's just they

KIMBERLY

i don't i don't buy the fact that that my phone can't actually be updated with safety features i think it's just they decide oh well we only want to support two models and yours isn't one of them anymore and it's more work for us so buy a new one i mean the u .s government has kept cobalt computer systems going for how many years i think they could keep the phones going as well but i mean i think that also gets to the other way they justify it is that you know that innovation and you know innovation as a brand has become you know i can think of

JORDEN

mean the u .s government has kept cobalt computer systems going for how many years i think they could keep the phones going as well but i mean i think that also gets to the other way they justify it is that you know that innovation and you know innovation as a brand has become you know i can think of as much as I love their products for some reasons, also take a lot of shots at Apple and their annual, you know, three product launches that are big events each year, updating something that was updated eight months before and the hype they drive around it to really push that we're this innovative, futuristic company when at the end of the day, again, it's just pushing a product that has a slightly redesigned bezel.

KIMBERLY

And that's actually what I was referencing earlier in the episode where we're just. Apple is under a lot of criticism for not being nearly as innovative as they used to be. And I'm sure part of it is just that it's harder to make the big leaps and bounds that they had in technological innovation. But part of it is just that complacency because they know that they have got that revenue income stream coming in and they don't really have quite the incentive that they used to.

JORDEN

No, it's exactly it. When you optimize your business model for yearly. Small updates with like a, you know, 10 year innovation cycle before you're really switched out to the new cool, like cool thing that changes how you approach innovation. That changes how you approach product design. You're not trying to beat yourself. You're just trying to get that next one up that is marginally better. And that's what they really like. If you think about it, that's what their innovation programs target in on. What is the minimal upgrade needed to be considered new and get people in, you know, to be excited, but not so much. that it then makes the last one obsolete because they're also selling the two models before and have their ratcheted down pricing scheme to keep people in on that flowing. You know, as we talked about at the beginning of the episode, almost a subscription model of purchasing. Well,

KIMBERLY

it also gives more people who don't have quite the buying power. They're able to buy into that as well. And then when they do have more buying power, then they're going to buy the newer ones. So it's like the same way as. advertising to young people that brand branding them as soon as possible as soon as you can afford that iphone then you can be part of the club i resisted into my early 20s before i got my first iphone and then you fell in love with it apparently no no now it's it's it's all around me so

JORDEN

resisted into my early 20s before i got my first iphone and then you

KIMBERLY

then you fell in love with it apparently no

JORDEN

no no now it's it's it's all around me so But like, as we were, we were talking about the getting, this goes back a long time. And I want to let you talk about this because I had never heard of a really interesting example of the, do you pronounce it the phobos? The phobos.

KIMBERLY

The phobos. I thought it was Phoebus. It's phobos, then I can say I've heard it both ways. So for the Phoebus cartel, yeah, this was something that was really interesting because this goes along with the lines of everybody else does it. So when this is the industry norm, how can you not do it and still compete? Because if you're going against the grain, then you're the one who's paying out way more and not sort of in that groove of the regular cycle that everybody else is. And so when light bulbs first became ubiquitous... And then that that's a whole so interesting in and of itself, right? Because it required wiring and who was actually paying for the wiring to be done between houses and cities and so forth. And that that's a whole separate like world, but it was so cool. And so when they became ubiquitous, major corporations, including Phillips and GE actually got together, formed this cartel and agreed to limit the lifespan of incandescent bulbs to 1000 hours, even though they could last easily. two to two and a half times longer than that. But this actually was the start of sort of planned obsolescence. And so anybody who didn't fall into that cartel model, they were fine, like these other companies find them like and find them out of business and or took them over or whatever. And so as recent, the most recent that I could find was from 2021. There's actually a website for the centennial light where they will occasionally post updates about this bulb that has burning in livermore california in a firehouse since 1901 so this has been burning all this time right so and it's amazing to show and okay it's not it's probably not something you really want to read by but nevertheless it just goes to show how long light bulb what the actual life of the light bulb is and yet that's something that regularly was being burned out on purpose

JORDEN

And I think everybody who's experienced a light bulb going out at the most inopportune time got a little frustrated hearing that. One of the things that I found, because I had to, the second I saw this, I was like, I went down a rabbit hole. And what I think is actually really cool is that this cartel was started in 1920s, 1924. It was disbanded in World War II, but it is still influencing our lives today. Because at the end of the cartel in World War II, the Consumer Electronics Standards adopted the bulb -shaped wattage options and voltage -based type from... the cartel standards and implemented them as the actual standard you had to build your light bulb to. Now, the funny thing, because most people are like, well, that's incandescent bulbs. We're switching to LEDs. But that bulb shape is the funny thing because we're replicating it in LEDs because people like to see things and it fits light fixtures. So even though we're now over, I guess, 101 years past the formation of this cartel. Right. And 50 years past is disbanding. The shape of our light bulb is still like a byproduct of that decision.

KIMBERLY

But that's actually, in my opinion, a really good thing, because for sustainability reasons, if you change it up, then you end up with a whole bunch of light fixtures that are obsolete. Like they've been into they're obsolete, too. that's no good either no no very happy that the leds have done it more just that like when we think of where does stuff come from in our world that was what was more interesting to me of why we have this shape the fact that they didn't go well no they have some of those like pronged led ones and new fixtures i'm not a fan of so yeah it's great that you can just replace it into your old lamps yeah and so as far as consumer electronics certainly this is they are so guilty of this then

JORDEN

no very happy that the leds have done it more just that like when we think of where does stuff come from in our world that was what was more interesting to me of why we have this shape the fact that they didn't go well no they have some of those like pronged led ones and new fixtures i'm not a fan of so yeah it's great that you can just replace it into your old lamps yeah

KIMBERLY

and so as far as consumer electronics certainly this is they are so guilty of this then Everybody from Apple to Samsung, every every smartphone that's out there, every computer laptop that's out there. I think that desktop computers are a little bit easier to break into and make changes to for sure over laptops. And part of that is just the fact that everything in a laptop is like microscopic.

JORDEN

Well, and it's also newer, too. I mean. even like in 2009 was the last time like i had to and again it really depends on what you're comfortable with right so It was the last time I had a laptop I could work on that I was comfortable working on. But to do that, I also had to get a soldering kit and, you know, remove like parts from the laptop and replace them. It was that heyday of Amazon coming out. So that all cost like $13 to replace instead of getting a new laptop. And for a great, you know, 12 kid coming out of high school, that was a great deal. But you can't do that now in the same way with laptops, I would say. And but you're right. The desktop that I'm actually recording this on, I've completely built myself and I've kept like just changing out parts as needed over the years.

KIMBERLY

That's definitely a lot easier to make. Even I, I might seem like a super dinosaur in so many ways because I will actually say that all the time. So people have every reason to believe that. But there are some things I'm not the most technologically sophisticated person in the world or tech savvy person either. But I even I can do things with like I could put in a new board. Right. I could go in and clean the boards and stuff like that. Things that would would cause it to degrade sooner.

JORDEN

Well, that's the major difference, I think, there for even the comfortability to start some of these things where it is a possibility at a desktop. Like you said, it's all plug and play, really. Right. laptop, again, you'd need soldering, right? And then getting down to like removing parts from the boards yourself. And I think that's a just, that alone is a barrier for people to do this, right? Is that knowledge and ability.

KIMBERLY

And that's part of when it comes to these electronics, then people say, oh, my battery died and just basically feel paralyzed by the fact. So some of them are actually non -replaceable and sealed and you're not going to get into them. And so also the same with storage devices and increasing storage ability, storage size, I don't know. Yeah, capacity, there is a good one. And then also like you were saying very much sort of now about subscription only models for everything. When it comes to, okay, so I remember you would get by software and it would come with disks and you put the disks in and then you could do updates and so forth. Now everything is just online and everything is like subscription only. You can't even buy the software anymore. You have to buy it from month to month. You're paying, always paying. And so that sort of thing, especially if you have older devices that slows down, this slows them down. And then they get dropped because, oh, well, you have your ancient computer. We're not updating that anymore for you. And so that and then along with the ink cartridges, like never print anything. You're better off if you never print. I guess most people now probably print a lot less than probably you or I do.

JORDEN

Yeah, well, so I've gotten away from printing. That was actually the cost of it and the amount. This was one of those like first like I couldn't just keep doing it. And I had to change my behavior because as much as I love the physical document, this is what switched me over to like like e -readers or tablets was the amount of documents I was doing and journal articles reading. And it was just I couldn't. I couldn't justify the amount of paper I was putting out. So like, I mean, I've actually kept them. They're all printed and still like anything I printed off, even like going back to undergrad is still in that closet because I was like, I felt bad. But I think this, you know, talking with a subscription model for a second, you know, I kind of alluded that I think it's almost a de facto subscription model. One of my most militant beliefs, though, is that I will not purchase subscription model products because it's becoming more common. Two years ago, I was looking at a really interesting kind of countertop compost machine that basically was a miniature version of an industrial compost system using heat and UV light to break it down quicker. And it was basically a four -day process where you could keep adding stuff into as it went and worked it out and spat out. you know, compost for your garden. I love the idea because I'd be living in a really small place. I don't have a lot of room for compost. So if I could take it over a week cycle and put it right into the garden, amazing. Go to look at the product. Oh, don't worry. You will ship it to you. It's only $150 subscription per month forever.

KIMBERLY

Wow. Yeah.

JORDEN

Instantly went away like great, great product. Would love it. This would be great for apartments everywhere. I would love to see this. But your business model choice just made sure that I will never look at the product or recommend you because, again, my most militant belief you will not get me to pay for a physical object every month over and over.

KIMBERLY

I have never even heard of that. So that is like an wow. Yeah, I would not. I would not buy that either. It is so that so and that that's not. Wow. I had to recover from that one. I'm sure there are probably plenty of those out there, too. I'd be curious to see when I first when the first one I come across.

JORDEN

And I think it's the proliferation of that subscription business model. Like once people again, going back to that kind of industry pressure, when people see it start working. There's a pressure to, well, how can we get the most value for this? And the most value is making you pay all the time. The idea of paying for the same thing over and over again,

KIMBERLY

idea of paying for the same thing over and over again, that's madness. Okay. So we see this also in the fashion and footwear industries where you might not even think about this, but of course we did an episode on fast fashion. We talked about this in our Halloween episode as well. That was with fast and especially ultra fast fashion. Also, sneaker companies do this with the glues that they use on soles that the types of shoes nowadays, it's either you can't find a shoe repair person or you can't actually repair the shoe or it's actually cheaper to buy. And this is often the case with anything we're talking about here with planned obsolescence. It's just from a cost benefit analysis. When you do it, you realize, is it really worth paying to have something repaired as it is just to. cough up the money for a new one well and especially repairs on these at the end of the day poorly made goods right there's a big difference and i think in some of the examples later we'll get to of like a really well made item and going to shoes for an example right that will last you you know 10 years before they need to be resold and then once resold another 15 years and so on and that's really that soul that's going to wear down that's a lot of value to that

JORDEN

and especially repairs on these at the end of the day poorly made goods right there's a big difference and i think in some of the examples later we'll get to of like a really well made item and going to shoes for an example right that will last you you know 10 years before they need to be resold and then once resold another 15 years and so on and that's really that soul that's going to wear down that's a lot of value to that But when you're talking about re -soling a shoe that maybe you replace that re -sol and now the tops are going to deteriorate in the next year anyways, that's where they really trap you and they're not being that value in extending it.

KIMBERLY

Well, I think, too, when we delineate between name brands like high end name brand Prada and whatever shoes, Gucci shoes and sneakers, because that's, again, one of those like on the treadmill of always you need to get the newest. coolest flashiest version of whatever nike or adidas or whatever is putting out right so they kind of have people trapped in the same way so even and that's that's again like the same your iphone might be perfectly fine and working but oh they have some new flashy thing and you need that well it's the same with the with the foot industry foot shoe foot yeah you know foot industry yeah

JORDEN

you know foot

KIMBERLY

industry yeah

JORDEN

It wasn't great for my younger years, but I'm really glad that I just accepted that I wasn't cool at a very young age. Like a lot of life pressure has been avoided by just knowing deep down that I'm not cool and it's not going to happen. So, you know, somebody the other day was like, oh, I like your shoes. And I'm like, oh, I know me too. I bought two pairs of them like four years ago. And when one wears out, I just opened the new box because I like these shoes. So just even I know these are real things. I know they're trends and I have friends. But at the end of the day, even when I hear it, I'm like, what do you mean you need a new pair of shoes? The shoes look pretty much the same. I mean, the biggest difference from even my shoes now to when I was a kid is I can't use Velcro anymore. And that I feel like if we could change anything to this podcast, the societal pressure around adults and Velcro would be one I would love to get rid of.

KIMBERLY

I feel it's interesting you needed to qualify that you have friends after saying all of you.

KIMBERLY

So we see this also in the auto industry, expensive proprietary digital diagnostic tools and the right to repair restrictions. And this is one thing that early on the United States passed legislation that said, look, you can't make it. so that people have to go to dealerships to have cars fixed, because we just do not have the capacity for dealerships to be able to do this. And we can't just see cars going into disrepair. And so that's something where there was definitely more pressure earlier on to be able to have the right to repair or at least third parties be able repair shops be able to do this. But I am very intimidated by the vehicle as it is. Like I said, I feel like getting into a spaceship when it comes time. And the idea that I would ever actually try to repair our car is completely outside of, you know, other than replacing windshield wiper blades or something. That's about my limit.

JORDEN

Well, I mean, but even there, that's a great start. So I love working on cars. I have done all repairs on every vehicle I've owned since I was 14. And it's funny, actually, my first vehicle was my grandma's. It got wrecked and we fixed it, turned it to my mom's. And then my mom got in an accident, wrote it off. The insurance company said, no, we'll pay for what it was worth towards a new vehicle. And so we drug that into a garage and rebuilt the front end. And I think that even if you're afraid actually checking your oil, doing your filter, doing your windshield wiper blades, that's a great way to even just build confidence. And it's a funny... I joke all the time. I mean, the next weekend I'm helping my father replace the fuel line system on his 2019 BMW. And even like now, and I've been doing this for, I guess, 20 years, I have a lot of experience. I still joke that at the end of the day, that's held together because I twisted a wrench like and there's a weird, you know, mental incongruity there. But I really think that this is one that everybody can do. And it's a perception more than an actual barrier. So for unless you're. With specific car brands, for most of us, we're going to be driving something where you just need a $20 to $50 scanner to get the code of what's wrong with the actual computer. And then YouTube is everyone's amazing friend on this. And actually, a lot of times I'm getting videos from mechanic shops. that are putting out little repair videos because most people aren't going to do it but it builds brand reputation so you can get some really good advice not just you know like 10 years ago where it was all somebody on their front you know yard which can be great there are amazing videos like that so i mean i don't know on this one i do feel like it's one of the last areas where the bigger barrier is cost of tools but you can start out one job at a time And then knowledge. And so this one, if people are really like listening to this and feeling frustrated to this episode, like, yeah, they're keeping us from, you know, stopping. I would really recommend looking at the car as an option as a way into this.

KIMBERLY

Well, that's that's an interesting recommendation, because my first thought is, wow, OK, that's that's starting on something really big and you're going to be driving this around. And if I did it, I would probably just die on me at some point, but maybe not.

JORDEN

No, I mean, at the end of the day, you just got to make sure it's tight enough.

KIMBERLY

Turn that wrench. I was really surprised to see that vehicles are actually on the road longer now than they were in previous decades, because I really thought, OK, I understand getting more mileage and more years out of cars, but I really thought because of repairability that earlier generations of cars actually could have been on the road longer.

JORDEN

I think it's also just that. like the the current people it's cost to like you know people keep their cars for longer and then the repairs like that they can break down until it's major like a transmission or engine like that the cost is still relatively i think affordable versus getting a new car so that's one of the the you know and the other things we've talked about it's the repair cost is above the replacement cost For very few things on a car, is the repair cost going to be above replacement? So I think that really drives the longevity of them.

KIMBERLY

And that, like you said, going along, the furniture industry is another that does this planned obsolescence. And IKEA is definitely the leader in this. But, excuse me, any mass market manufacturer really is sort of, I mean, the idea of fast furniture is not a made -up thing. It is actually up there with fast fashion. it's the cheap particle board and the glued together joints that seeing those dovetailed joints that are beautifully constructed like even even companies that are you would think like thomasville and ethan allen and so forth that you would expect them to have really well constructed even some of them have fallen for various pieces into to just the glued together joints and fasteners that don't survive, like just poles and stuff. And you see like bottoms of drawers or backs of drawers that just aren't nearly as solid as what they used to be. It just furniture is just not built to move or to last anymore.

JORDEN

No, it really isn't. And so one thing, and I thought this might just be kind of the algorithm knowing what I like, but I've been seeing more and more of my friends anecdotally and then videos of my generation doing more DYI projects. So I actually looked it up and I couldn't find good statistics, but every industry report I found from kind of the home improvement industry cited millennials and Gen Zers as being their major growth area. And so one of the stats I did find is that while older generations, Gen X and the boomers own more homes, millennials are actually spending more of their income on home improvements. And I thought you'd like this and be happy to hear that two of the common trends I saw across these reports were that millennials and Gen Zers have a strong focus on the sustainability of products and quick product repair and replacement when choosing the brands that they're purchasing from.

KIMBERLY

I am very happy to hear that because when we talk about things like white goods, right, we also see this was the thing for us. We had the same washing machine for a really long time and we had somebody and dryer, in fact, washer dryer set for like probably 20 years. And we actually found somebody who was able and capable of and knew where to get parts to repair them. And we were able to repair them a few times. But the last time our washer quit on us, we were just like, And we actually looked at what our options were and getting something that didn't have the whole digital thing going on with it. And like, OK, so we can program our washer from, you know, when we're out driving around if we want to. But but I mean, OK, from a sustainability perspective, yes, it's better at weighing the amount of laundry and knowing how much water to put in and all of those sorts of things. And so this is actually part of. When we look at businesses and why they get away with planned obsolescence is because, okay, well, they argue if we're going to make this washer that is actually a lot smarter and gets a higher five -star rating, though apparently that's going away, that is more eco -friendly, then here's one of the trade -offs you're going to have to be willing to make. However, then they at the same time, they're putting plastic, like you said, with the dishwasher, plastics in with stress points or using proprietary parts and even people who really want to. OK, so you might be able to get a device to fix your car, digital, knowing digital things about your car and your washer might even send you digital messages about what's wrong with it. But good luck in trying to repair it.

JORDEN

yeah so i i want to pause because i hadn't heard this term before is white goods is that would be like your big home appliances that are typically that kind of okay because they were usually white until stainless steel became a thing but yeah that's where that term comes from oh okay yeah no i never heard it so like your your fridge would fridge like that kind of stuff too okay fridge dishwasher freezer arrange stove microwave

KIMBERLY

typically that kind of okay because they were usually white until stainless steel became a thing but yeah that's where that term comes from oh

JORDEN

yeah that's where that term comes from oh okay yeah no i never heard it so like your your fridge would fridge like that kind of stuff too okay fridge

KIMBERLY

yeah no

KIMBERLY

fridge dishwasher freezer arrange stove microwave OK, I don't know if microwave because some microwaves are really sophisticated convection oven type things. So I guess that falls into that, too.

JORDEN

I don't

JORDEN

I don't know, but that two years ago tried to repair my microwave and went into the hassle of trying to find a part for it. Right. And so even there where, you know, want to do it, have the skills to do it, took it apart, found what I needed, searched through the Internet to find the repair and not even the repair menu, but the operating manual for this thing. And then you can't buy the part anywhere. Or I had to order like 10 ,000. Sorry, that was the one option if I wanted.

KIMBERLY

Yeah, right. Yeah, because you can repair everybody's or you can't just repair your own. Yeah, we actually, because I have my spouses, he's much more technologically sophisticated than I am. And he also knows tools way better than I do. And so between the two of us, like I'm really good at like being able to figure out how things go together and so forth. So we work really well together, which is cool to be able to install things. repair things and so forth. But even at that, we run in often to the same problem that you do. We will always try to fix something first and go to YouTube because it's amazing just the number of really well put together instructional videos that are out there. I give kudos to all of those people who do that just out of a labor of love. But that's something that we always start there. But sometimes we end up either because of the part, the cost of the part or the unavailability of it. Or sometimes it's just, you know, it's going to make more sense. We finally gave up and got rid of the washing machine, which was a bummer because we really liked it. But ours probably saves a lot more water and energy and so forth.

JORDEN

No, and I like how you described that as like a project for like the two of you. And I think that this is like one, you know, an aspect of sustainability that can be kind of fun if you look at it the right way. You know, like getting to use something longer and maybe that for me, that experience of joy when upgrading or doom for Kimberly, but also for the experience of learning more about it and having a fun little project like, you know, that thing breaks is such a negative moment. But as an opportunity to now have some fun to like see and build that skill, I think that's a great way to look at it. And then if you hit that. a lot of times i think that we're faced with the choice of doing something and or not like the good option or the bad option we've checked the bad one because it's easier and we feel that guilt i also think here there's because of the systems in place and without some of the things we'll get to later like you know right to repair laws you you actually don't have a lot of choice on some of these so you can easily hit that wall of well i can't again my option would have been way worse for the environment to buy 10 000 of the one part i needed to replace a microwave so i think It's an interesting one for people to get into in their own personal lives.

KIMBERLY

Yeah. And one of the things that in putting together this episode, I realized that actually food manufacturers fall into planned obsolescence, even though they're completely outside of the industries that you would think of. Because, and we've talked about this in previous episodes with food waste and various other episodes, is just that they actually have that in terms of giving consumers expiration dates, putting used by or best by dates on their foods. So they're basically prompting us to say, oh, this isn't going to be quite as fresh, so we should probably replace it before it even needs to be replaced. So I thought that was a really interesting one, too, that I wanted to throw in there.

JORDEN

Well, because you see it across the economy, right? Like it really has become such a dominant frame of thinking about consumerism.

KIMBERLY

someone mentioned, well, why would corporations do this? I don't think that this is accurate because they're really risking their reputation. And why would they want to like intentionally load software on your phone? I remember one of the very first episodes I was talking about Apple and how they do all of these updates. And the country of Italy actually sued Apple for this because they said they found them guilty of intentionally slowing down people's devices to force them to buy newer models sooner. So the response was like, why would they do this on purpose? And the thing is, is that it turns out after some research that I did that they're well aware that this may happen. However, even though it is sort of short -term risk to their reputation for a bit of biopublicity and, you know, if they may lack competitiveness with other brands who plan this obsolescence because they tend to be more conscientious and like their stuff lasts longer, but consumers keep coming back. And so it's that brand loyalty versus convenience. So after Apple faced these, it didn't matter that they faced these lawsuits. Instead, customers kept coming back and saying, we want more, buy more apples, please.

JORDEN

Well, no, I think that this is as I was thinking about this episode throughout the out throughout the planning, it was one where I knew it was going to be a little bit more pushy on on us as consumers. Right. And again, there can always be rational reasons for doing stuff, but it doesn't mean that that takes away the consequence of it. And for a lot of it's and I would say it's not just the like the like the brand, you know, and that it's also price. Right. And the convenience of the product. In a lot of cases, I think one of the worst planned obsolescence examples we haven't touched on is children's toys. And it's not just the, you know, there's people who, oh, it should all be wood toys. We should all go back to the old. And it's not even that. I look at the plastic sand, kind of Fisher -Price sand. play thing that I, you know, we had when I was a little kid, it was a big turtle. Loved it. The thickness of that plastic and the years that lasted versus the one that you can buy for my nieces and nephews now is just nights and night and day. And you can't, I'm not asking for 19 tens, you know, like. a wood box to play in but even in the the quality of plastics they're using materials and how they're designing it is so it'll break within a year and you have to buy another another one and it's the convenience of being able to pick up that pack of 10 plastic toys for 10 bucks and throw them in the car and not think about it and and so i do think that this is one of those areas we actually have to look at our behavior a lot in in the choices we're making and consuming i totally agree in terms of just we are a disposable society and so

KIMBERLY

totally agree in terms of just we are a disposable society and so If we end up disposing of some of these things, oh, it broke, whatever, no big deal. We're so conditioned into that, that it really doesn't matter that much to us as it used to.

JORDEN

Well, and it's also hard for these lawsuits to actually move the needle on these cases, because at the end of the day, as we said in some of the examples above and that range of good to bad examples, if you can link your design choices to good examples, you know, that'll pass at least pass the sniff test. It's really hard to prove without the smoking gun email saying, hey, make it break in two years. You know, going we the fun thing is we don't have cartel moments as explicitly as the 1920s anymore, where, you know, they'll handshake around a table around a thousand hours. And at least now there'll be a thousand and ten, you know, nine hundred and ninety and a little bit of what do you mean? It was an accident. The technology limited us.

KIMBERLY

That's right. And then also, as you mentioned earlier in the episode. corporations actually promote sustainability while using these tactics so it's like if they ever end up facing something where they're accused of planned obsolescence then all they have to do is say well you know like oh wait look we have this amazing other thing that we're doing that helps the planet and so they divide they divert public attention away from whatever that controversy is and and that they their image recovery like comes back really quick. And we all know that stuff goes away in 24 hour news cycle anyway. So they're on to the next thing. And so if they don't really take much of a hit, which goes back to the overarching point that their reputation really isn't that much at risk. And so it's definitely at the bottom line is worth it for them just to keep doing the same thing. Yet there are some companies that have actually defied this, which is really excellent. And they encourage repair and upgradability and, and they invite people to pull them apart and repair them and fix them and provide everything they need to be able to do this and want to provide long lasting goods. But there's such a minority, minutia part of society of the commercial world that there are a few name brands that people would know like Patagonia. But when you start going down the list of some of the others, it might be like, oh, I might have heard of that.

JORDEN

So, I mean, I wanted to, you know, you put some examples in our document and I added a few in because I think that the small market share is one part of it. But I added some examples that I think people would know the name brands of, but they'll instantly understand why they're not the dominant too. And so, you know, we talked about cars. So Snap -on Tools. is a famous tool brand very very luxury tool kind of brand very high price point but a complete replacement or rebuild policy without the original receipt even if you bought it secondhand they say they won't but i have known mechanics my entire life you just send it and you know tell or write email them you get it replaced two others i wanted to hit on quickly was osprey backpacks Their motto is any reason, any product, any era. You know, you send us a 1974 backpack. If the zippers broke, we will replace that zipper. If we can't, we'll replace the backpack. And then Zippo, Zippo Lighters. If it's an actual name brand Zippo, it works or refix it free is their motto. And in all of these cases, I think, I hope people got that the common denominators, they're all luxury brands. They all have a very high initial price point, which. presents the barrier to like the consumers actually buying it because again you know you think about a you know 30 to 50 zippo lighter when you need a lighter and they're two dollars right or you know 10 bucks for a knockoff zippo and you go with that thinking you're saving when not thinking about the how you could actually have that zippo replaced repaired and keep it for the next 50 to 80 years

KIMBERLY

a famous

KIMBERLY

Your lifetime, basically.

JORDEN

Yeah, your your or your I mean, I was on the company and they had videos of actually repairing people's grandfather's Zippo's from back when, like in the first couple of years of the company. And it's really just they lean into these kind of companies. But they're not the norm because they're not competing on price. And as long as we're consuming on price as the primary motivator, these companies aren't going to be the norm. I would just really recommend people to look like I found over 100 companies that have this similar level of warranty and stuff. And to your point, either all niche, small or luxury. Those were the three factors.

KIMBERLY

Right. That's why I think Patagonia is one of probably the biggest because it is an actual store. There are there are locations in They have over 100 stores worldwide. It's not an unknown name. They offer lifetime repairs. When I was in Amsterdam, I saw they had a board outside of their store that they were actually having repair sessions that weekend, that upcoming weekend for bringing any clothes that you need to have that are Patagonia you need to repair. And we'll do them right here on site. If we can't, we'll replace them. They recycle old gear. There are some, they have a... like they don't have a lifetime limited war. Like you, there are some things that's just like, and I think that's fair because it's the same for LL Bean. Like they'll repair and replace stuff if it's worn out, like they guarantee it for life. But the thing about that is that I think it's as a consumer, there's an exit, like you should be reasonable in your expectation. If you've had something for 20 years, it's not fair to, you've worn it every day for them to, for you to go to them and say, Hey, replace my coat. Right. And so a good example I found was,

JORDEN

good example I found was, A yoga mat manufacturer, they say that their yoga mats used right, used daily should last 10 years. That is how long they warranty it for. If it breaks, rips, tears or anything up until that 10 year point, they'll give you a new one because it shouldn't have. Right. But it'd be expecting it on year 15 to still be working, I think would be the negative. Right.

KIMBERLY

Well, and I think, too, that that. That assumes that people keep their receipts. So you know exactly how long you've had it. And so, but I still think that that's fair as opposed to lifetime warranty for some things. That's especially clothing. That's a lot. I like also that Patagonia runs their worn wear program to resell used items and that this is the same for REI. They are definitely moving in the direction of encouraging less consumption. Now they're a cooperative so that, you know, they have more leeway in this and it's actually, consumer owned right cooperative you pay into it but they have reselling their they resell clothes in their stores they encourage repair they i've seen recently they started doing repair sessions too i think and so so that i i actually one that i have worn vivo barefoot shoes for quite some years now because i had to move away from like regular footwear was just killing my feet like my feet my my knees and so forth and i realized it was i wasn't used to walking barefoot it was too much i was adding more cushions instead of going the reverse so just sort of went the exact opposite direction and they have really over the years they care a lot they're an ethically sourced their leather is ethically sourced fair trade cooperatives from fair trade cooperatives in kenya They work directly with the Maasai there to provide leather. And they're very environmentally conscious. And now they started working with a company in the United States to resole their shoes. And so, yeah, I'm really hard on hiking boots because I go out into the woods every day. And so I tear through them pretty quickly. But Vivo, initially, they used to actually replace them if anything wore out with them in a year. And I was sending them back every time. I think I'm the one who broke their system and they decided they were going to just only do re -soling.

KIMBERLY

But at least the leather that I tear through is ethically sourced. I like I would really advocate for, you know, anybody who wants good shoes that are going to last and they have a really good policy about at least trying to to replace something that hasn't lived up to your expectation. But the other one that I really wish that we could have gotten a speed queen washing machine. And that is like if you have laundromats, if anybody's been like, that's what is in a laundromat because they're practically indestructible. They're easy to repair. And the big difference is they don't have those digital components. And so we were actually thinking about getting one of those, but then we're like, yeah, we should probably go with the more eco -friendly one. And that was ultimately our decision. But there are some companies that are out there that are actually trying to move in a different direction. But the bottom line is, is that it's really hard to compete in the mainstream market. And so except for Speed Queen, because of laundromats. Other than that, like I mentioned, Patagonia has 100 stores worldwide. But if you look at that versus The Gap, which has 1 ,400 stores worldwide, and then H &M has 4 ,300 stores worldwide, this is like, you know, Patagonia has a loyal following, just like Vivo Barefoot, just like Zippo Lighters and so forth. And that's it. At the end of the day, you're going to buy your Osprey backpack because you know it's going to last, but you're coughing up a lot of money up front. Most of the time, that's not it. And because we're conditioned to disposability, we'll just move on to the next thing. And that's another one, Copoxy. I always forget that. It's a company that makes backpacks and clothing and stuff. They also actually have been recollecting the old backpacks and making them into new backpacks.

JORDEN

Oh, wow. And so this is it's funny because I have this slight obsession with planning out an eventual Appalachian hike trip.

KIMBERLY

Oh, cool. I'll join you.

JORDEN

I'll join you. And so you find this ethos really common amongst kind of outdoor brands. I think it's probably the most common. My favorite is Darn Tough Socks.

KIMBERLY

Yeah.

JORDEN

And their example is like, here's a. Here's a sock that's got five holes in it and is worn down and is a different color. Just send it back to us and you get a new pair. And as I've been preparing for it and looking at the forums, it's really talked about a lot amongst that community of which companies actually honor their warranties, which ones, what's the most extreme, you know, disrepair, state of disrepair you can send something back in. But like this gets to the point of why it's not the norm is that you mentioned that price point, right? Because these companies aren't going to sell you five. They know that right now. I mean, the sock company, they're hoping they get your full 15 pairs of socks, but that's not the norm. And so I think that's why when you look at how they have to do it, they have to make that money off you on that upfront purchase price, but then building such a strong brand connection that you're going to buy their six other product lines to make that lifetime customer value because they're not getting it off of a repeat purchase.

KIMBERLY

Yeah. And capitalist system just doesn't want this. They want us to, in order to grow and expand capitalism and companies need more, they need to find ways to get consumers to buy more and more. And so when it comes down to it, with all of the other things that are going on, most of the time people are going to just take the easy way out. But it makes sense to me. I have a theory that people who spend more time outdoors care more about what's going on outdoors. And so I don't know how, if that would hold water or not, but. So I don't know. What do you think? Do you think we should be hopeful at the end of the day about the direction things are going?

JORDEN

I mean, I really do. A, I think that there's growing brand options, you know, and for most of the like any listener of this show and most people in sustainability have already started thinking a little more intentionally about what they're buying. I think it's an easy second ad now to start looking for companies that are also like. you know, kind of give you that right to repair or really focus on it. So it's another level you can easily add on. And then as we'll get to in the next episode, we're starting to see companies start being pulled in this direction. I don't think, you know, the main brands aren't running this way, but they're definitely being dragged that way. So both of those things leave me hopeful for, you know, the next 20 years.

KIMBERLY

I think too, along with what we talked about with just the internet and what it has to provide with us in terms of. some places where you can actually find parts, you can find manuals and so forth, that we have at least more of an option, like you said, where it's not just you trying to figure it out, like paging through an ancient manual, but actually have more ways to be able to facilitate this. So if you enjoyed our episode of Sustainable Planet, or even if you didn't, let us know at splanetpod at gmail .com and join the others who have contacted us, who we appreciate your feedback. We're also on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube. You'll find these links on our show notes and on our website at splanetpod .com, along with additional resources from today's episode. You can read more on my Substack post. We'd really appreciate it if you'd write, review, rate our episode and our podcast on your podcast app. It only takes a minute. We'd really appreciate it. Thanks for listening and have a sustainable day.