How to Enjoy the Stay Sustainably
Where to go, how to get there: Sorted. Now it's time to choose some digs, get some food, and pick up some souvenirs to remember the trip---all of which can be done sustainably, with a bit of thought.
Episode 36
8/21/2025
The domestic journey continues in the second of a four-part series on travel, considering the dilemmas that choosing accommodations, dining, and souvenirs raise for sustainably-minded travelers. As U.S. domestic travel rebounded to $918 billion in 2022 and is projected to hit over $1 trillion in 2027, the choices voyagers make matter even more as the climate change situation worsens. But to still have a great time, Jorden and Kimberly discuss practical ways travelers can minimize their carbon footprint while maximizing their positive impact.
Key Topics Jorden and Kimberly discuss include:
How Jorden and Kimberly have greened-up their souvenir-buying habits over the years
Whether hotel chains or local boutiques are better eco-choices
How all-inclusive resort experiences can be very sustainable or very destructive
How vacation rental platforms like Airbnb impact people and the planet
Just how popular glamping has become
Recommended Resources
Episode Transcript
KIMBERLY
Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist Kimberly Weir and my co -host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues.
JORDEN
Hi Kimberly, thanks for joining us. Today we're kicking off a two -part series on domestic travel, a booming industry that's projected to top $1 trillion by 2027. Whether you're road tripping Route 66, braving the crowds at Disney, or heading to a national park, one thing's clear, more of us are traveling closer to home. But we have to ask ourselves, how sustainable is this surge? In the first episode, we're talking about the journey itself, where we're going and how we're getting there. And how do we balance bucket lists with the climate crisis? So, Kimberly, if you could take a free all expenses paid trip anywhere in the U .S. or Canada, but you had to get there using the most sustainable travel method possible, where would you go and how are you getting there?
KIMBERLY
There is no question in my mind immediately when I saw this question and you read it. You could have asked me right here on the spot and I would have had the same exact off the top of my head answer. It would be Banff National Park. No question. Like I have wanted to go to Banff for so long and that's your own backyard. So envious.
JORDEN
I take for granted. Yeah.
KIMBERLY
And I have wanted to go there for ever since probably I found out about it. And I love winter too. And I love snow. And so for me, ideally, I will go in, you know, February, which is really hard getting anybody else to go with me because most of my friends want to go to beaches and islands and so forth and not, you know, winter in Canada in February or any other time winter for that matter. And so I was thinking about that. And for this episode, I discovered that there's still a lot of rail travel. And so I think the most sustainable way I know that there, well, it's not convenient, of course, right? So in this instance, and that's one of the big trade -offs when we start talking about this stuff is, well, were we willing to make the trade -offs or not? And so I, one time Michael and I had been going to conferences in Chicago for many years and I looked into taking Amtrak because I know there's an Amtrak that was running from Cincinnati to Chicago. It left. from downtown at like midnight and it was one and it was got to Chicago at four in the morning and that was it. And, and so that's the thing is I would sustainably do it. I mean, it was just me, especially someday I'm probably just gonna have to suck it up and go to Banff by myself. And I'll probably love it because I do a lot of travel on my own. I always meet people, right? There are always people.
JORDEN
Well, I was gonna say, and you have me here. So I can actually get you to avail yourself of what's right outside your front door.
KIMBERLY
can actually get you to avail yourself of what's right outside your front door. And so, yeah. And so I would do that for me. I would do that. I would suck it up and do that and then connect somehow to the Canadian rail system and make my way across. And I think it would be fantastic. And I would happily stay at a sustainable eco lodge. I am not a prissy person. I do not need to be pampered. And in fact, when I go places, I sometimes have ended up. in hotels for various reasons or resorts or something that are that are like way make me feel really uncomfortable I don't like people like turning down my bed and wait feeling like people are waiting on me even though you know we pay people to do this so yeah no question my answer Banff is is it it's it's funny I was actually I was out just at a research retreat a couple weeks ago in Banff
JORDEN
yeah no
KIMBERLY
question my answer Banff
JORDEN
is is it it's it's funny I was actually I was out just at a research retreat a couple weeks ago in Banff I was there last year and there was no cell phone service. It's 15 minutes off the main highway in my country, no cell phone service. But thankfully, because the G7 was in Banff this year, they put in two new cell phone towers. So we got the amazing. But I am always struck because I was there with a lot of people from Toronto and grad students for international grad students who have never been. And just the like the wonder and the amazement as they're staring at it. And it always makes me feel a little almost uncomfortable because I was like, oh, yeah. This is really pretty, I guess, but I see it all the time. I do think that there's something amazing about Banff because, you know, Canada, for a very beautiful, you know, wild country, we got all the way across the country and it wasn't until we hit Banff that we decided, wait, we need to protect this and make sure that it doesn't get disturbed. So Banff is actually the first national park in Canada as well. So something we're really proud of here. I think the transportation questions are really interesting way into travel because tourism is really only two centuries old. And it's really transportation that drives the invention of a tourism industry with with the Industrial Revolution and the steam ship and the train kind of really kicking it off and then coming into. I think everybody knows the story of, you know, finally getting vacations and then tourism as a concept really being pushed by a luggage company is one of my favorite kind of. silly stories of how this all plays together. And so I think that like now when we think of like low cost airlines and people really driving tourism there, it's still just a continued story of how transportation is shaping this.
KIMBERLY
I think that it's really interesting, too, that that that also was a big factor in more domestic transportation, more domestic vacationing, especially with the introduction of the personal automobile really, really spurred growth. And so we know that domestic tourism has steadily increased in most places in the world and in the United States and Canada, steadily increased over the last 30 years. And then even very quickly in 2023, returned to pre -pandemic growth trends and has continued growing since then.
KIMBERLY
Spending in 2022 was $918 billion. You mentioned the other part of travel spending is expected to hit $1 trillion by 2027. And so that's, I mean, we see a lot of money going into this because, yeah, of course, people want to go to BAM. People want to see these amazing things and have these experiences. And in fact, AAA projects that 72 .2 million people will travel over at least 50 miles. Over the upcoming 4th of July weekend, so for this week, because it falls on a Friday, so people are taking advantage of the week before and after, you know, so to get the most days off, which I'm going to mention is also Jordan's birthday. So very exciting, even though he doesn't get the fireworks in Canada for this. He'll have to cross the border for that.
JORDEN
I love knowing that 300 million people are throwing me a birthday party. And so 72 .2 million people will also be traveling for you,
KIMBERLY
72 .2 million people will also be traveling for you, Jordan. And Florida is the top domestic destination, without question. It had a record -breaking year in 2024 with over 41 million visitors. And so these are the places, you know, like in Florida is also a top international. For international tourist destination as well, too. People want to go to Florida.
JORDEN
Yeah, no, it's really it's always interesting as a Canadian. Like I just I think, you know, for any American listeners, those numbers kind of just seem normal. But putting in perspective for, you know, as a Canadian, both of those numbers, 72 million and 41 million are more. Well, 41 million slightly under the population of my country. Right. So and that's just like travelers going to the population of Canada is going to Florida in a year. And that kind of blows my mind. And we're hitting, you know, 20 billion in domestic spending. And that's up above pre -pandemic levels. So we've actually returned and exceeded pre -pandemic domestic travel. But it's also funny because this has been a big shift for Canada in domestic travel in the last decade. Since 1986, Canadians have basically spent more on international travel primarily to the States than they had in domestic travel. And COVID and then the recent trade tensions with America have really, really shifted domestic travel, though, and spending. So one of the really interesting things that I've seen in my time kind of in this space. is a shift to an understanding, though, that it's actually Canadians that were causing a lot of the degradation of national parks. I know we'll get into this later, but I know from people who worked in the space that they actually thought that would be the opposite, right? As domestic goes up, oh, well, these are Canadians who will love the parks, but that wasn't seen. And then this year alone, we've seen a 15 % decrease to American travel and that increase correspondingly rising to Canadian travel. So I think that that's a really interesting kind of shift and what like how that will play out in sustainability. So we'll get to some of the modes of transportation. But this like how you are traveling and where you're going are really going to drive the impact of your trip.
KIMBERLY
And I've actually seen I've traveled a number of times internationally using Air Canada. There are flights going out of Cincinnati and it's like it's sometimes it's a big pain in the butt because then I have to basically travel and connect as a domestic. through Canada, if I'm going from like Toronto to Montreal, I also have to check and recheck bags and stuff and it's a nightmare. But I do like Air Canada a lot. So here's a little plug for Air Canada. But I, so I was on, on their email list and getting there and they have lots of, lots of specials, inter -Canada link specials. Like, I mean, a major airline that's got like budget airline rates for go, you know, go visit Vancouver, go visit, you know, Calgary, whatever. sort of rates. And so I see that as something that's definitely evidence of what you were just describing of what's going on in Canada.
JORDEN
Well, actually, it's funny to mention Canada. Last month, they had to drop down their financial projections for the year because of the amount of decreased U .S. trips.
KIMBERLY
And the same, I just was reading about the United States, too. The decrease in Canadians coming over actually has caused a drop in. Overall hotel prices, domestic hotel prices by 2%. Well,
JORDEN
there you go. So that's a benefit. I got nothing against Canadians,
KIMBERLY
I got nothing against Canadians, you know?
JORDEN
So speaking of, there's lots of places you can go for a trip. I mean, I know we've gotten breaking out here, but do you, when you're thinking of domestic travel, do you have a favorite kind of vacation spot?
KIMBERLY
Well, I have grown to love Chicago over all of these years because we've gone to conference there and it's like going there. It's a very tame city. And so, so you can drive there and not feel like I, so I could run the East coast, right. As everybody probably knows at this point. And, and I, I learned to drive where if you're in the left lane, you're exceeding the speed limit by like 25%. And if you are not going as fast as possible past every single car in the lane next to you, somebody is behind you flashing their headlights. Like that's just how I learned to drive. And so Chicago is an entirely like any any normal human being from anywhere on the planet could rent a car in Chicago and feel totally OK driving as opposed to New York City, where they would probably feel like their life was in danger, like serious danger. Just, you know, rule to anyone who's never driven in New York City, don't ever, ever, ever drive in the left lane unless you mean it.
JORDEN
I've only enjoyed driving in one U .S. city a bunch, but only one did I enjoy. And that was Minneapolis.
KIMBERLY
Because I know you road trip in the States a lot. So you've driven through a lot. So Minneapolis would be very similar to Chicago, I'm sure.
JORDEN
Oh, it's very and it's very Canadian. Like it was like less overpasses, lots of big streets, lots of space. It felt very Minneapolis actually reminds me of an art deco Calgary. They're they're kind of prairie cities. Very. So it was everywhere else, though, when I'm in L .A. driving through or. Like going into Vegas, I'm very much when I'm in the U .S., I drive my car to my spot, I park it and then I'll get around by like other modes for the rest.
KIMBERLY
And that's actually most cities now are to the point where they're equipped that way that really are trying to work harder to allow people to have more public transportation. especially because especially with las vegas so many people fly like that's a fly destination it's in the middle yeah unless you're coming from california it's really not convenient i was gonna say the last time i drove there i had to drive through a place called death valley to get there so i can understand why people don't but i mean if you have never been to death valley i do highly recommend it that's a place i would really like to go and haven't been yet but i could spend we could spend lots of time just talking about these destinations because i love to travel and jordan loves to travel and
JORDEN
was gonna say the last time i drove there i had to drive through a place called death valley to get there so i can understand why people don't but i mean if you have never been to death valley i do highly recommend it that's
KIMBERLY
a place i would really like to go and haven't been yet but i could spend we could spend lots of time just talking about these destinations because i love to travel and jordan loves to travel and So you love to travel. So, yeah. So in the United States, the top destination for certain is New York City. And almost 14 million people a year go to New York City. And the next city is Miami. And it is like way far behind at only 8 million. And then after that, Las Vegas and LA. I mean, so New York City is without question a top tourist destination. And I actually lived in New York City for a bit. And I mean, it's totally worth it. And I love to answer your previous question more. I love Boston, too. I mean, there's never really a city I've been to that I think I wouldn't mind spending some more time here, though I've never been to Las Vegas. And that's part of the reason why I don't think I would ever come away from Las Vegas. I think I want to spend more time here.
JORDEN
I love it. So it's a first it surprised me that Las Vegas wasn't higher because because I think of it as just a tourism city. It was my on my last I've been there a couple times for like weekend trips. My last one we were driving was the first time I had driven through Vegas proper, like the city. And the first time I thought, wait, I guess there is an entire city here that has to like still function. So that was the funny things of how you think about about things. We have the top Canadian cities, obviously probably unsurprising to most people, Toronto and Vancouver. If you're thinking of a Canadian trip, I recommend Vancouver over Toronto. Just for the ocean, you can't really beat it. But the thing I think here is when we're looking at those big cities, the impacts of tourism to a bigger city, I think, can be absorbed a little bit better than some of the smaller cities that become boom and bust cities around like their economy around it. And I think that it's an interesting tension when thinking about traveling to some of these regional places, the actual like. the almost tourism trap. You know, we talk about resource traps and stuff that economies can get in. But I think for some of these smaller locations, the annual influx, which keeps the town going, but then also drives massive pressure on local resources, on waste management, that some of these bigger cities can handle a little bit better because it's more set up for it.
KIMBERLY
Especially if they're not already sort of set up as seasonal. towns anyway. I mean, there are plenty of places that are seasonal and they're used to that. But for cities that expect then to have these continued tourist dollars coming in, that can be, I mean, the pandemic is a perfect example of what happens when that dries up really quickly. I was surprised to see that Washington, D .C. was number 13 in North America in terms of destinations because there's so much to offer there with only 2 million people a year. It actually ranks lower than Montreal, which surprised me because Montreal is a little more just sort of distant. You know, Washington, D .C. is on the belt. Like you can't get from on the East Coast without sort of tripping over Washington, D .C. So I was surprised to see that so low on there. Especially because there are so many free things to do there. Like all of the Smithsonian are all free. All the monuments are free unless you pay to go up in the Washington Monument. You know, I think that's not free or I think it actually is free anyway.
JORDEN
Yeah, I do. That's the one. So yeah, it's a dollar or something,
KIMBERLY
a dollar or something, maybe to book it or something. I think it's actually still free ish. I don't know. But, but this also, I was surprised to see that in terms of all of North America, that. Cancun was number five. And that's not just like the Playa del Carmen, the coast and all of the resorts. That's like the actual city of Cancun is number five on this list. So that ranks even higher than the Washington, D .C. and Montreal and Vancouver and like all of those other places. I'm really surprised to see that. And Mexico City also hits number 10, is at number nine.
JORDEN
Yeah, the Mexican ones didn't surprise me so much. As somebody who's taken like four vacations to Washington, D .C., I was definitely a little surprised. Those are the life moments that remind me that, yes, I am a nerd and I can't get around it. But no, I wasn't surprised to see the Mexican ones higher and then higher than the Canadian numbers. Mostly, again, even like Canadian domestic tourism is lower, right? When you have America and Mexico kind of right there, I think it draws it in. So, I mean, the fact that it's just Cancun, the city is I think is probably the surprising part, but not that that many people are going to Mexico.
KIMBERLY
Yeah. Well, I was thinking, too, to your point that there are actually more Mexicans than there are Canadians anyway. So there are also, I mean, Mexico is an emerging economy, so there are plenty of middle income people who also could go to Cancun and maybe not going to the resorts, but will go to the city for the amenities it has. And Mexico City, I think that's just one of those like. I don't know how many people will go to Mexico City just as a destination, but probably end up going there for other things and then say, oh, it's not a bad place to be a tourist and maybe go back.
JORDEN
Well, and then I think the thing to keep in mind is like, because, you know, today we're more so than a lot of our episodes, we'll have more of a North American focus to the domestic travel because it's our experience and where we're coming from. But just to keep it in perspective for everybody, a way I think about this is like 2 % of the population of India have been on a plane. So 98 percent haven't, meaning that for everyone in the country who's outside that two percent who are taking any sort of travel are going to be doing it domestically via train or via car. And that holds for a lot of countries around the globe, the majority of tourism and travel. And I think you made a good point about the you can look at the rising of the middle class within a country. Right. Because that's really where, you know, as we started the episode talking about the kind of 200 rise, your rise of tourism. you know, in the West, you see that play out in other countries with domestic travel being the first intro. So while we're very focused on North America today, the patterns play out. And I'd say that even the patterns are probably more prevalent in other countries where such a large percentage of our travel in American Canada is captured by international travel, right?
KIMBERLY
Right. And also, I mean, so a few points. One, certainly as I've traveled around the world, one thing that is... common when I see people who are from emerging economies, if they're not just completely affluent and can go pretty much anywhere in the world, they hit the major tourist places, right? And also when traveling, they also are more likely to go regionally because regionally is going to be less expensive for them. So a lot of people end up going to various places in India from surrounding countries. So that's also... another, another trend that I've noticed just being out. But I think also to your point, like we could do this exact same episode for Europe. We could do this for any East, any Westerns, like the, the main European union countries, excluding central, central, most, not all, but most of central. Europe and some you know so the the ones that are global north I could have just shortcutted this by saying the ones that are global north in in Europe or the same for Japan South Korea so forth you see that same sort of thing going on well and I think that's you know
JORDEN
and I think that's you know just as like a heads up for for listeners we are going to do an you know two -part on international travel and you can almost like think about them as flipped like right now we're doing domestic travel focused on north america but that is international travel for europe and when we get to international travel next week that's really going to be the domestic travel for those countries right so good way to look at it yeah that's how i was thinking about it
KIMBERLY
way to look at it yeah that's
JORDEN
yeah that's how i was thinking about it I know one of my favorite things and a big draw in both Canada and America are the national park systems. It's one of my, I think, for such massive and geographically diverse countries, it's one of my favorite things that have been built up.
KIMBERLY
Certainly for me as well. I will go anywhere. I joke, I'll go pretty much anywhere anybody would send me to for that matter. But yeah, when it comes to. to vacations i love to hike and so for me i'm always looking at my my spouse however is much more of a city person he likes to make sure that there's a city anywhere and if then he'll he'll concede to some hiking but i usually it's got to be someplace where it has the what he wants from a city so colorado worked well for us because we could go to Denver is OK. Boulder is fantastic. But then we could also go to the Rocky Mountain National Park and we can both be, you know, have a good vacation. And so when it comes to the United States, the U .S. National Park sites get 331 .9 million visitors they had in 2024. And this isn't just for people who don't know a lot about the National Park Service. It includes the national parks, but also. federally funded and protected monuments and memorials and like scenic drives. There's a great one through Shenandoah Valley and along the various coasts and stuff, battlefields and even seashores and so forth. And so when it comes to people tend to think of national parks, they just think of like Rocky Mountain National Park or something. Jordan, do you know what the most visited national park is in the United States?
JORDEN
I we have it in the notes, but I will admit that I did not know that it was this was the one and it wouldn't have been my guess.
KIMBERLY
No, not at all. So I'll give people a minute to see if they figure out what it is. Now that you gave them a bit of a clue, because it's not what you would expect. It's not Yellowstone or Yosemite or or Death Valley. I don't know. I think that's a national park. That's a national park. Right. No, it is. In fact, and I did know this because I came across this a few years ago. I was like, what? Great Smoky Mountains National Park, which is mostly in Tennessee and then runs into North Carolina, is actually the most visited national park in the United States with over 12 million visitors in 2024. And that's like huge. And so you put this in some nowhere.
KIMBERLY
you put
KIMBERLY
you put
KIMBERLY
this in some nowhere.
KIMBERLY
I'll just add like, I mean, OK, so there are some major like you've got Knoxville and you've got, you know, Nashville. But it's still not like the closest city is Knoxville. It's not Nashville. It's not Memphis. The ones that people tend to think of with Tennessee. Yeah.
JORDEN
So put this in perspective, all Canadian national parks and my numbers are for just the parks, not for some of our museums out east. But. only get around 15 million visitors per year as of 2023. So 3 million less people are going to just the Great Smoking Mountains. And so when I read this, though, it actually clicked with, you know, I know I've told you, but I have this like wild dream of one day hiking the Appalachian Trail on a through hike. And so, like, I do a lot of looking into that. And the Great Smoky Mountains is one of the only places on that entire hike where you have to book your where you're staying at night and you have to hit it. And if you don't, you don't get it because of how. And so, like, I guess like that had been floating there. So when I saw this, although to your point, though, I'm trying to like mentally place it of how so many people are getting there and going into it. But it's because of it is so vast for starters.
KIMBERLY
because of it is so vast for starters. Right. But it is, you know, lots of people transit through there, through Tennessee. So that's part of it. But there are also, it is worthwhile destination in and of itself. It's gorgeous. And they're like Dollywood, as we'll talk about with amusement parks is there. I remember the first time I heard about Dollywood, I thought, oh my gosh, this sounds so cheesy. It is not, I still haven't been, but I've known enough people who have gone there and read enough about what Dolly Parton had done in doing this, putting this together, that that is also makes part of this, the great Smoky Mountains National Park, that makes it also a dual attraction along with. Just now there are a bunch of other things like water worlds and stuff like that also there. So it's a really hugely built up. And for knife lovers, if you want to spend a half a day there with somebody who's a knife lover, stop at Knife World is the largest place in the United States. I know this from personal experience. I was driving through. Yeah. And so the next parks on the list aren't surprising. They're the ones you would probably, most people would think of first, like Zion, right? And I want to, that's like, I still haven't hit that sort of middle part where I really want to go to Zion. I have been to Grand Canyon, which is just, you know, like one of those places where, where photos just don't, right? People say that about a lot of things. That is one thing where there is nothing you can see, no video, nothing. You have to be there.
JORDEN
And I will. And so I'll say to people, it's funny. I on my road trip last year, I got to see Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Yosemite, Death Valley. I think I hit six national parks. I had, I thought, a really strong expectation of what the Grand Canyon would be like because I've seen it in movies. You've seen the shots. I'm convinced now they actually take the worst shots possible to make it look like this desolate wasteland. Or they're only there in like November. Because when I was there in June, it was the most lush green explosion. But then at the same time, the mountain kind of like, it's not mountain, but like the valley, the canyon itself. I'm stumbling over my words because you actually cannot describe what seeing it's like. And I highly recommend it to everybody.
KIMBERLY
I was actually there in January and it was snowing. So that was a really cool and neat experience too. And so that's a place where you just can't go wrong. And it's huge too. So it's not like everybody has to be tripping over each other. Of course, you know, the more you go to the high season, that's going to make it less of a... perhaps pleasant experience, but it also depends on where you hike or what you're going for and what part of it you go to. So it certainly breaks it up a little bit better because there are multiple entries to it as opposed to someplace like Yellowstone or Rocky Mountain or Yosemite, where there's a little bit more concentration of where people want to go, where they're staying and so forth and filtering in through. And so that has led to things like having reservation systems like you were mentioning with where you where you hike on the at with with this it's like yeah reservation systems just for the time of day you actually enter these parks because they are so they you know and that's part of our whole sustainability issue right is we want to avoid the overcrowding because of the tax it has on the ecosystem and and so what do you do about that well here's one way and well this is like one of the things yeah
JORDEN
well this is like one of the things yeah It gets to the point where it's almost comical. I'd say Yellowstone was probably the worst of my trip for this last year, where for everything that you're going to see, you're basically standing in a horde of people of 100 people and you kind of press and you shuffle up to you get to the front and you get to see the thing for your three minutes, take your photos. And then you're off to the back. And even from an experience standpoint, I'd say I loved Yellowstone. It was great. I'm glad I got to see it. But it also felt the most developed isn't the right word, but it felt less like I was seeing something natural almost because of the amount of people there. And then this is, you know, you tie in social media. And I think one of the big sustainability challenges we've seen. In the last few years, because people think, OK, well, I'm going to go camping. That's going to be more sustainable at the end of the day. And like there, you shook your head because it really depends on how you're doing it. And I think the way that most people start out is not going to be the best. And one of the things that we've actually seen in the rise of kind of these eco influencers and a big problem is geotagging. So like, you know, people geotag the perfect selfie spot. And then the next thing you know, within weeks, you have thousands of people going to the spot that had maybe seen 10 visitors a week before that. And now it's destroyed. And everyone converging on that same spot,
KIMBERLYKIMBERLY
Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist Kimberly Weir and my co -host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues.
JORDEN
Hi Kimberly. In this episode, we're stepping beyond the itinerary and into the reality of where we stay, what we eat, and what do we bring home. Because once the journey is planned and the bags are packed, the next set of choices quietly unfolds. Hotel or rental, chain or local, t -shirt or artisan ceramics. And behind each of those choices is a ripple effect on local economies, housing markets, and ecosystems. Some are making real progress while others are wrapped in recycling paper but delivering the same old story. And today we're asking, what does it actually mean to enjoy a place sustainably? And can we still relax while paying attention? So, Kimberly, we all know you love to travel, but do you have a horde of plastic souvenirs stashed at home marking these trips?
KIMBERLY
I do not. When I was younger, my grandparents used to love to take road trips, like day trips and weekend trips and so forth. And at the time, it was always, oh, what are we going to get the gift shop sort of thing? And so I had little, you know, I was never, I've never been a collector. Um, and so for me, it was just like, I guess I sort of felt pressured into like, okay, so I guess I'll collect key rings, but I never did anything with them. You just like put them all together and they sat in the, you know, in my closet. And so, so yeah, I guess I just, I don't have a collector mentality. So for me, it's easy. And for a while, I used to think I should bring people, you know, stuff back for people. And then I found that most of the time, because they hadn't been there, they didn't necessarily really enjoy it like anyway. And so I stopped doing that. And now I just only buy stuff for me or other people if it's like, oh, I see this and I know Michael would really like it. So it's not beyond the pressure of having to feel obliged to bring something back for someone now.
JORDEN
No, that's that's fair for me. Oh, and I have a friend who travels with me listening, so I have to be very careful. I learned from my grandmother that you go to every gift shop and every place. So I always get a coffee cup from every trip. I like that because I actually use them. Actually, today I'm drinking out of my Voodoo Donuts coffee cup from my Portland trip last year. A coffee donut shaped coffee mug is less useful than you'd think for mixing and stirring. It doesn't work out so well. The other thing I randomly really enjoy is playing cards. I find that you're always, you know, going through decks of cards, you lose them and stuff. So having them from places you go is kind of fun. But actually, my favorite souvenir from any place is a book and usually one that has nothing to do with the place. I love buying books on it. So it's actually some of my favorite mementos of travel. You wouldn't imagine they're connected to that trip. But in my mind, I remember where I bought it. And that brings it out for me more than a plastic little you saw Vegas keychain.
KIMBERLY
Okay. So, so this is serious, like nerd admitting, but Michael and I always go to bookstores in whatever city we go to. And I, even when I travel abroad, if there, and this is actually decreased in recent years, bookstores that have book markers that are for that specific establishment. So I just, that is one thing I will always get for him is if there's a book marker in a book. a bookshop in a city, I will do that because we actually use those. And I, I usually just use like if there's a train stub or, you know, something like that, or an entrance to a, to a site has a ticket stub. Those I laminate those and use those as bookmarkers. But I agree with you. Like I pick up a book to read. I'm like, Oh, I got that this bookstore when I was in such and such place. And that's, that's kind of really cool too. So I do actually do that from time to time.
JORDEN
Yeah, it was great on my last trip. So normally when I'm traveling, I go to bookstores every even when I'm on a work trip. I think finding local bookstores is just a great thing. But you're limited to two to three books. That's the most I can stuff into my bags on top of all the stuff you bring. My last trip to Vancouver actually drove out rather than flying because I just I wanted to add some personal time to it. I ended up going to seven bookstores on that trip and I bought 19 new books. And at one point somebody was like, what are you, what are you doing? Why are you buying so many books? And without missing a beat, I looked at them and I said, because I have a car, I had a limited space and there's no adult to stop me. So this is happening.
KIMBERLY
We do the same thing. When we go to Chicago, they have a lot of really excellent used bookstores as well as some really excellent new bookstores. And we drive there. And so we come home with just piles of books. And so guilty. We are guilty of that. And so when it comes to trips, we talked about in part one of this episode that in the post -pandemic domestic tourism rebound, it has where we are beyond what the dip was during COVID. And now every year has grown and is continuing to grow. U .S. domestic travel spending in 2022 was $918 billion. And travel spend is expected to hit over $1 trillion globally for 2027. So when we start talking about stats and the number of people moving around, like these sorts of things are going to continue to be issues. Well,
JORDEN
and a couple of things to put this in perspective that I found was. A little alarming, and I didn't think about this, is that tourism is actually more carbon intensive relative to other areas of economic activity that you can kind of go for when you're thinking more of like focused on like regional, even manufacturing. It can be, it really depends on where it was. So the best numbers I could find for this, because I was trying to think of. I think people giving people an easy way to understand their impact is really useful. So one I found out this is a 2020 study, but it was using 2015 data. So the lag is always real, but about per dollar of final demand. So and this is on a global average. So when you're looking at those numbers there of how much we're spending globally, it works out to about one kilogram of CO2 equivalent for every dollar spent in tourism. So you can take those billions that we just said, and that's like tons and tons of CO2 emissions. But it's also an easy way for you at the end of your trip to look back and say, OK, I spent three grand on that trip. That's 3000 kilograms roughly of CO2 equivalent. So that is a quick shorthand way to be able to do that and feel really bad or figure out a way like,
KIMBERLY
is a quick shorthand way to be able to do that and feel really bad or figure out a way like, how can I improve and not hit 3000 next time?
JORDEN
Exactly right. I don't think a lot of people will do that. But I mean, also, like it drives me to think a little bit, too, about ways that I'm offsetting and other aspects of my life or even, you know, I think that I work a lot in carbon markets. So we can we should do an episode one day. It'd be a little too ranty. Now, there are bad offsets out there, but there are also really great offsets that you can look into that, you know. are internationally recognized and highly rated. And I think that's the other side of it too, is saying like, personally, again, I'm not stopping that giant road trip, but I can look at, you know, I can offset that. So I'm not using 11 % of my carbon footprint in a year on that one trip, right?
KIMBERLY
And it's not like you do that. same 11 % every single year. They might vary from year to year. So there's that too. I mean, there are bigger trips that are certainly going to be more CO2 and other ways non -sustainable. than some other years. And I mean, I mean, like, hey, COVID, like nothing else, like there. Okay, we get a little bit of a grace period for those. I still managed to travel. I was gonna say, I did my road trips too,
JORDEN
was gonna say, I did my road trips too, Kimberly. Yeah, I was gonna say, my timing ended up being working out okay in my favor there. I had my,
KIMBERLY
Yeah, I was gonna say, my timing ended up being working out okay in my favor there. I had my, I was on sabbatical, I had a big trip in February. So I still managed to, unfortunately, my carbon footprint for that year even was bad. But when we, oh, sorry, go ahead.
JORDEN
I think we're both going to transition into it because I was going to say like the destination you choose is going to drive your emissions. But even once you've kind of settled on what you're going to do, you know, in that themes we talked about in the first episode, where you choose to stay is going to have a large impact on your emissions from that end destination.
KIMBERLY
Yeah. And it's interesting. So like I was thinking and thinking about this, like hotel, motel, right? Chains versus local properties. You know, what it really comes down to is the reliability and the convenience versus unique and intimate environment. There are plenty of local properties that work to be sustainable and they can be just as sustainable. And the larger chains, of course, they are under pressure. They're under public scrutiny to have sustainability initiatives in place. and to be competitive. And that's something that's under the public spotlight. So of course, like if they're doing something that's not nearly as sustainable as the other chains, then they're going to get called out on that. Plus, they also are cost cutting measures for these large chains. And this is the same for whatever we're talking about, whether it's a hotel or a resort or a restaurant or whatever, right? airlines, anything that has to do with the travel industry. And so they have that advantage of the economy of scale. Also, they have teams of people who they can dedicate. They have big pockets that they can set accountability measures for reducing water and energy consumption and waste management and so forth. And that all works to their advantage. And so, of course, they're going to have that advantage over local properties. But local properties also might be able to sell themselves as a sustainability site. And it can be harder and more competitive that way. But also, there are people, there is a market for it. It's there.
JORDEN
Yeah. So this is how I think about it. One, I want to, you know, at the chain hotels, I think that they're great for showing sustainability in everybody's life. Because you're actually if you think about the improvements in the last 10 years, it's really been about getting us to change our behavior. Do you need your sheets changed every day? Oh, that towel. I think we've all seen the sign, right? Like, leave your towel on the floor. It'll get changed. Don't. And we won't. And, you know, we talked in the nudge episode about which nudges work and don't work. And I think that hotels do it great by like, you know, 70 percent of guests use the towel for two nights kind of. And those messagings that really work. But the other thing I think, and so in conversations I've had, I'm trying to think of how to say this. In conversations I've had with sustainability, people in the hotel industry, it is not a driver of people's decisions. So no one, at least from the conversations I've had with some of the bigger chains, it's not, they're not seeing that people are going to them because they're sustainable. There is a minimum, you know, when we talked about the episode. A couple episodes ago, I gave my theory of why greenwashing can be kind of a good thing if we're constantly raising the standards. From my conversations with people in the hotel industry, it's essentially that. There is a minimum that if they violate it now, they see a negative penalty, but no one's choosing them. So I think that's why you see slower change at the at the kind of chain level. Right. You're going to get a great guaranteed baseline. But then to your point, this is where some of the smaller and single operators can really shine because it might be harder for them to get that baseline level and get there because there's a lot more that they have to do. But once they've committed to that, it's actually easier for them to go all the way and take it to that next level because they're not trying to roll it out across, you know, 300 hotels across North America.
KIMBERLY
Yeah. And unlike a chain hotel where there's the expectation, I think one of the worst things is a mini fridge. I mean, they are so energy inefficient. Every single room's got a little mini fridge. Like you go to a local chain, that might not be the expectation that there's a fridge in your room. And you're okay with that, especially if they're selling the sustainability aspect of it. But I like your point about... Hotel chains sort of being a way for us as consumers to think about, like, what have they done? What can we maybe also do at home? Because for them, they're doing it, you know, in part for reputation, but absolutely for bottom line. The same holds true for us. I think, too, that one of the cool things that both hotel chains and local places can contribute to sustainability is when they actually refurbish old buildings for use. There are plenty of, especially cities where they just will not just let them tear down a building and, you know, put up a new one. And so that, I think that's a, that's, you know, there are all sorts of reasons why that happens, but that's a good thing, I think. And I think, you know, it also can positively or negatively affect the, like market, property market, the housing, local, local jobs, local housing displacement, unfortunately, gentrification. And so.
JORDEN
Yeah, well, because I think that it's really hard to talk about hotels and motels, especially in cities, without then talking about the vacation rentals and the growth of Airbnb. You know, I think when I was a kid, I mean, for us, travel was camping. So I didn't think of camping as vacation for most of my childhood because that was just like how you stay places when you travel. But B &Bs were this very fancy, like romantic almost thing in my mind growing up. And now, I mean, actually, I love staying at B &Bs. Like, actually, one of my favorite places to stay, if you can find a good one, is a bed and breakfast. I think you get a lot of the benefits of the smaller places. But because they're set up more around the guests, I think, B &Bs, like, it just feels like a great trip. But Airbnbs and the just massive impact they have had, I think, on the first episode, we kind of moved on from the urban issues to the, like, a smaller town or natural issues. From the sustainability angle, because again, New York can absorb the travelers, but where I think that like the sustainability impacts on urban environments that we've seen in the last decade have really been from the, you know, mass removal of housing stock to this kind of short term lease or vacation rental.
KIMBERLY
Oh, it's astonishing when I started looking at the numbers for Airbnb and Urbo. The vacation rentals in the U .S. vacation rental industry's total revenue is estimated to be $19 .7 billion. So almost $2 billion in 2024 it was. Airbnb alone generated $11 billion in revenue, and that was a 12 % increase from the previous year. And the gross booking volume on Airbnb was $81 .8 billion. So their revenue was $11 billion, but the total booking was $81 billion. And in the United States, that leads with 2 .25 million listings. New York City topped that. And that was of all the cities in the whole world in terms of that. Verbo made an estimated 3 .8 billion and they're moving up because they came into after Airbnb and they make up 28 % of Expedia's total revenue. So these are big, big industries and growth industries, humongous. And the effect they've had on property and housing markets and local displacement. And also... The number of these that are now being built or bought exclusively to use as rentals and especially seasonal, like that's for Airbnb, the average occupancy is 54 % of the time, right? The most popular locations are 80%, but we've got all the way down to 30%. So we're looking at like half the time these places are sitting empty.
JORDEN
Well, on average, another thing that really happened is much like Uber, Airbnb, I think, is like, actually, I don't want to be too hyperbolic. It's an insidious byproduct of venture capitalism. And now I think that people have listened to every episode I've been on just were gasped. Right. Because I'm very I'm usually like, well, here's the good side of it. But. The problem with venture capitalist business models in the last 20 years is that they were premised on this idea of just capture market share, like a technology kind of like Google. That's really easy when you don't have a physical cost. Right. But capturing market share and then increasing your costs to make money later does not work in the physical world. And we've seen this now multiple times. The problem is that they destroy what was there first. Right. So I think Airbnb. This is a great example of where the cost of Airbnb is now like when they first came out, they were so heavily subsidized that it was like just honestly a third of the price of getting a hotel in a lot of places. Now, with all of the like additional fees and additional cleaning fees and the cost of it, I've only used Airbnb in the last few years when I actually have a group of like eight or more people.
KIMBERLY
on average,
JORDEN
only used Airbnb in the last few years when I actually have a group of like eight or more people. And now you're at you're at as an event like price of where it drops it down. And so like Airbnb really bothers me as an industry because I think that we've seen enough negative impacts in cities. And this isn't just like we could point to stats. We could point to a lot of things to show it. But actually just like Google search town banning Airbnb and go look at the news articles. And this is a yearly thing and it continues. So like it's not even that the changes are happening that is stopping this. And then you see the negative impacts on the housing level. And then I think that it's just as a traveler, even it's become a horrible experience. And but because they kind of disrupted what used to be there and because they've changed that market, I don't see them going away. And it's just it leaves me with a really bad feeling when we talk about vacation rentals.
KIMBERLY
Well, I think that I mean, vacation rentals were always there, but they just weren't there on this scale. And they weren't there for somebody just to sign online and and get a rental. You had to actually like either go to a rental agency. I had friends who always. Every year would rent a beach at a house at the beach and they would actually make the trip down and they would go and they would see the properties like the real estate agent would show them around these properties. And a lot of these places that I understand, like we family vacation for us, we've got multiple families coming together. We try to find like a destination that's convenient for most of us. And then. use Vrbo to do that. And I mean, that's basically still going through real estate agents who are using that as a way to then get out there and get wider market share, right? And I mean, so from that perspective, that's only making the job of the real estate agents easier and perhaps in, I would expect increasing the fill rate of those. would be otherwise sitting empty because they don't have people actually going there and saying, oh, I'm going to drive to this destination and rent. But where you have this whole new world is that just average person decides they're going to buy a second house and then they're just going to have that rent out. And I think that that's what is really the bad side about this. And I'm sure everybody has had questionable experiences when it comes to using, if they use these services, but at the same time, they can be a lot less expensive than staying in a hotel. And in some ways, it's not bad because you can get more of a bit of a living locally experience rather than, you know, being in a hotel or being in a bed and breakfast even. And so I think that when it comes to another thing, I have, I don't know, sort of a love -hate relationship with is resorts because
KIMBERLY
I mean, let's face it, if you need an actual vacation and want to check out and I'm always the person who's responsible for finding food for the vegan couple who's out. And so for me, it's like going to a resort. I have gone to resorts by myself during COVID. I went, I needed a break in the worst way and I just needed to check out. And that was the only way it was going to happen. And I went. I went to Acomal Bay. I highly recommend that in Mexico. And it was all inclusive. And for me, that was awesome because I didn't have to cook anything for an entire week. I could just walk in and forage and be done with it and didn't have to think about it. And my spouse, as you all know, Michael is not a fan of travel and he definitely doesn't want to go sit on the beach. And so for him, he didn't go like staying home was his. better for him that was his vacation yeah that was that was his vacation i always leave food for him when i travel so he doesn't even have to forage he just has to turn on a microwave which sometimes is a challenge apparently
JORDEN
was his vacation yeah
KIMBERLY
that was that was his vacation i always leave food for him when i travel so he doesn't even have to forage he just has to turn on a microwave which sometimes is a challenge apparently I should I should not disparage the person who edits our episodes and puts them together for us to actually come out sounding decent. So I mean,
JORDEN
mean, just for everybody, I've seen like the other side of how grateful he is for the meal prep and how much he's complimentary and boosting of Kimberly for all the amazing things she does. So I'll throw some in for Mike here. Yeah. So for resorts,
KIMBERLY
for resorts, like they are great places. for so many reasons. And if they are also making an attempt to be sustainable, then they can be awesome places to go. They can also be really awful for the environment too, though, if they're not responsible. And so we, and I was really surprised that domestically, since we're still focusing on domestic travel here. just how many there were in the United States and Canada domestic, because I always think of them as, oh, somebody goes to Caribbean, like I mentioned Mexico or somewhere, but beachfront and coastal spa and wellness centers, mountain resorts, like these, some unique experiences. I immediately thought of dude ranch, right? Because of city slickers. And so, or like artisan experiences where people will go and be immersed in like pottery or beekeeping or other things like that. The top rated ones are all over the country. So it's not even like they're concentrated in any specific place. And some of them are even in really remote locations. So, you know, I tend to think of all inclusive, but they're all, you know, like on the beach, but they're all inclusive places that are even beach places in the United States, which I just didn't even occur to me. Like I would never would have thought to go to an all inclusive place in the United States. I didn't even know they existed.
JORDEN
Yeah, but I mean, you're in that. minority of Americans with a passport, right? So, no, but I think that this is also a really exciting thing. One, it gives some of these kind of remote, local, like local, because if you're there, but some of these remote areas, a path to kind of attract an economic engine for their area, right? Because this is one of the great things about tourism, again, is that once it starts, if it can bring in consistent money, and even if it's on a seasonal basis, your local economy can basically start to set up around that and understand that. And then that flows a lot more into the businesses and the people who live there that keeps going in the off season. So that is one of the benefits. And then as we talked about in the first part of this episode with the kind of concentration of people, if more and more places across the country are setting up, and for me, the mountain resorts are the one I think about just being so close to Banff and the Rockies. But I know that there's lots of amazing coastal ones on islands. in vancouver that starts to again spread out the impact so now instead of everybody going to kind of one big famous one maybe you have the same amount of people going to 15 smaller places and that can be another a benefit but i think that on the resorts hotels kind of where you're staying this is probably the area where if you are concerned about the sustainability of your travel you can make one of the biggest impacts and be really intentional about it because you you can really do the work and find the ones that are pushing for it. There are options.
KIMBERLY
Not only that, but just like the same practices at home, like with the towels and so forth. But not only that, but food waste. We know from this show that food waste is one of the worst carbon emission contributors in the entire universe, nonstop across the board. And the number of people who just waste food at buffets because they can at all -inclusive places. Like that, that's just unacceptable. It just shouldn't happen. And that's something that just like, as we were talking about with national parks in the last episode, that's just actual consumer responsibility that needs to happen there.
JORDEN
And these are like the small ones, right? Like, don't take that that extra plate or, you know, don't throw the thing on the I mean, honestly, I eat at buffets so rarely because I'm cheap enough that when I go to a buffet, I want them to regret that I ate at the buffet by the end of it. That's, you know, I was thinking the all inclusive places because I'm not I'm like you,
KIMBERLY
was thinking the all inclusive places because I'm not I'm like you, like I would never get my money's worth at a buffet. I barely do at resorts because I don't I'm not much of an alcohol consumer either. And so like there I'm I'm just a cheap date. All right.
JORDEN
They're making their money off you and keeping the price down for the rest of us.
KIMBERLY
their money
KIMBERLY
Yeah, I subsidize everybody else. I do that in a lot of ways, right? The same with, so you mentioned camping, that that was not a vacation for you. I have a friend who she's like, I never want to camp again. But I think she would appreciate glamping, which is really taking off. The United States leads by a substantial portion and margin. I was really surprised. It's a $25 .8 million industry. It's expected to grow at 12 .8 % in just five years, not even five years, because that was 20, yeah, for the next five years. And so according to a KOA survey, which is the Campgrounds of America that starts with a K, which is kind of dumb, but an English teacher would loathe that. Glampers spend 45 % more time in local communities than actual standard campers do. So that's actually kind of a good side of what glamping can add. to you know the local economy and the really the big difference here is still the leave no trace principle right for glamping and it's like there are in the same way with chain hotels or whatever we're talking about there are ones that are actually selling that sustainability practice and like you pointed out if they actually do it from the get -go they can have something that is really i mean and also not just not okay it might cost a little bit more up front but in the end it's going to be a lot better Especially if they can get some sort of certification to be ultra green because having solar energy and eco -friendly waste management and low flow fixtures and composting toilets and so forth, like that's all stuff that's going to save them a heap of money. So it's the upfront cost. And sometimes that's where these places, the small places can't do, but they can't do that.
JORDEN
No, 100%. I mean, I just want to start by saying I'm not surprised that America has the most glamping. The word glamping is the most American -coded word I've heard in a while. You mean you can't handle camping, so you want us to make this nicer for you? Yes. Apparently, it's quite popular in Australia, too.
KIMBERLY
Apparently, it's quite popular in Australia, too. It's also quite popular in Canada.
JORDEN
also quite popular in Canada. I looked at a few sites. I can't. So for me, it's like the worst of everything is like I'm going out into the wilderness to not be in the wilderness, but I'm still going to be waking up to a cold, wanting a fire. I don't I don't get it. But I do. To your point, I think that it is an area of tourism that has actually really focused on the people who want sustainability as a way of differentiating and especially. I think for glamping, you are you're spending more. I mean, I compare it more to a resort. I don't compare it to camping because I don't think like the people who are doing I don't think it's the similar or maybe I think later in life. Right. Like I know some people who camped when they were younger and now like the glamping trip. But it really, I do feel that it's more of a resort level. You're going for an experience, but you want the, you know, turned down service, right? Well,
KIMBERLY
right? Well, and it's interesting because as you pointed out, glamping actually uses seven times more energy than what camping, traditional camping does and uses three times more water per night. But when you compare that to just a regular hotel, it's actually 50 liters for the hotel. Versus the glamping, which was way less than the camping, which was the absolute least. So that, you know, even that is still less intensive in that way. I forget what the statistics were for, but across the board, it was like, you're better off staying there than a hotel in terms of that impact. But for, you know, for anyone who spends time in nature, like that leave no trace is really the important thing. And the thing is, is that something we can carry across the board because it should apply for hotel rooms too, right? And like, if you know they're not going to have recycling there, then either make a point of taking it to. a place that's got recycling in the city or just cut back on the single use, whatever, if you can. And I know that sucks. And Jordan's making faces at me.
JORDEN
No, I'm making faces because you have to think about it not having recycling. So one of the hardest things, you know, we're doing an international episode later. So I've been saving a lot of my shots at America for that one because when I go there, it's international. But this is actually something I struggle with when I do trips to the States, which, you know, I do quite like every year almost. is that me me doing a camping trip in Canada is just automatically better because everywhere I go has recycling for bottles and then has plastics, has car like not just one type of recycling has the suite. And again, we've talked so much about how that always doesn't translate to it actually being recycled and, you know, not getting into that. But it actually hurts me to go to the States. and not and like i i have a bottle and i know it's just going to go in the garbage or the amount of disposable single use like plastic cutlery and everything that is just like ubiquitous in traveling in the states So, yes, listen to Kimberly. There's lots you can do to remove that or you can be in Canada and have better sustainability. Well,
KIMBERLY
and when we drive, we actually do bring I mean, it's also the bring it back. If you took it with you, bring it back, you know, like or what's wrong with just like if you've got one bag and you could just put some recyclables in it and do it at home like I do that all the time. And I know I'm a weirdo, but whatever. So when we do go, what else do we buy? Well, we've spent lots of time talking about food in other episodes. So we're going to keep that one short for this. It's the same issues as with chains versus, you know, chain hotels versus local. You know, sometimes it's going to be more sustainable. Sometimes it's going to be less. Sometimes the draw is about spelling the sustainability aspect or the farm to table approach or whatever. But it really just depends. And, you know, you think maybe think local economy, but then there are plenty of people in local economy who work at fast food restaurants all year long, regardless of whether it's a seasonal place or not. Right. Because they're doing it for the locals. And so but I think souvenirs, I mean, as we talked about at the onset here, that's it was really hard to find current data on souvenirs. So I only have the global figure. I don't know what you found, but. For 2022, it was $95 billion. And that was still during the post -COVID recovery period. So it's in question that it's gotten bigger. There's a growth expectation of 2 .6 % projected at $114 billion for 2029. And so I think the big question with this is what it is that people buy. Is it something that's actually meaningful? Is it just something that's imported? You know, like it's coming from China and it's a snow globe or it's a whatever. Or is it something that's locally made, which is going to, you know, probably be more sustainable because you're probably more likely to keep it longer? I don't know.
JORDEN
Well, no, but even then, I think that it's also again, any a long time ago, I was introduced to a framework called the natural step framework, and I didn't like it because it was premised that the only way to be sustainable was to have no impact whatsoever. And. It just bothered me because I was like, OK, well, then you're done. Like I if I can only be bad by opening my mouth in like the literal morning, then I don't care about it.
KIMBERLY
it. I mean, and that's not that's the whole point. These sorts of things are so militant that even people like us who are totally on board are just going to be turned off immediately.
JORDEN
Exactly. And I think so. But I think that that's the point of here today is, yeah, sure. You're going to, you know, getting a souvenir is going to have an impact no matter what. That's OK. But, you know, when you're buying that something that's actually made by a local craftsperson, even if it's not put the sustainability of the environment aside for one second. Right. Let's just even pretend it came out to be the same or maybe even worse because that mass produced one is divided by a million units, whatever it is. You're giving the money to a local artisan into the local community. We know that money that goes in at that level of a community has more of a multiplier effect and gets like stays within the community more. It is going to, as you said, some is probably going to last longer just by how it's made. And I mean, I have no data on this, but. I toss it to you as a question, at least for me, those kind of really unique, random things that I found and picked up are the ones that like on my bookshelves where I have my kind of displays of the things that you pick. Those are the ones that are still on there. And there's not a single piece of plastic that's on those shelves.
KIMBERLY
Same for me. I would guess, too, another thing that, you know, besides. So maybe there's the thing that somebody wants to collect. And like Michael was collecting snow globes for a long time. He's since abandoned that. It was interesting trying to find those in some places. But, you know, T -shirts, keychains, stuff like that. You know, I get that. Coasters and whatever. But I would, you know, I would guess that locally made food and beverages are popular too. And along with place unique handicrafts. And so, you know, just like everything else with this, just sort of thinking about what, what it is that's more sustainable approach to the people really appreciate what you take back to them. And, you know, maybe something that's much more practical, taking them some food is more likely to have less of an overall. footprint than just taking them something just to say, hey, you know, like I got this, you know, they went and they brought me back the stupid T -shirt sort of thing. But I would put it to our listeners to say, you know, what they think is like worthwhile things to collect and or bring home and what their habits are.
JORDEN
Well, and maybe this is this is a way to put it into perspective of it because I was looking at trying to do this really quickly. So again, using that simple one kilogram of CO2 per dollar metric, right? We hit that 95 billion in like we're at 95 billion in annual souvenir spending globally. OK, rough heuristic. That's 95 billion kilograms of CO2. I put this all the way up. You get to 94 million tons of annual CO2. So in perspective, every time you're buying that kind of souvenir, you're contributing to the equivalent of the emissions of Venezuela. Like that is the country level emissions of Venezuela is what we do in souvenirs annually.
KIMBERLY
Wow. And I did see a statistic that was like it was an average rough average of the average tourist spends one hundred fifty to three hundred dollars on souvenirs. And so right there, you can also that quick metric that you gave us like that's your personal impact right there.
JORDEN
Yeah. And that's why I actually love. putting CO2 into a spending metric. It's the easiest way because people have that at their bank account and stuff, right? But there, that's next time you're going to buy that. I can honestly say that I'm thinking of like the like 30 decks of cards I own. So maybe I might not, you know, buy the next deck of cards. And if one friend in particular is listening, I hope you hold me to that.
KIMBERLY
So what we do know is that tourism, domestic tourism is a growth industry. The more people are getting in on it and especially getting in on the online marketplaces for rentals. And so we're just going to see continued growth. The same with the Uber as displacing taxi drivers and all sorts of things. Right. And so I don't know. Are you hopeful? I'm still like kind of where I ended on the last episode, too. It really I think a lot of this comes down to us as travelers. and really making an effort to be at least aware of what we're doing and ways that we can try to change and also opting for the places that are more sustainable when possible.
JORDEN
Yeah. And so I guess this is the thing, like it's a hard question because I guess I think what sustainability as those three social, economic and environmental, that's how I'm going to say I'm hopeful because I know that like we're going to keep. The absolute environmental impact will keep growing as people keep it going for now. We're not where tourism is not an area where we're seeing declining a bend yet. Right. So I think that that that sucks. Although then when I start thinking about it, if people are pushing to domestic more, we know right away on the international plane travel versus just the ways we can even because domestic plane travel is worse than international, I want to say. So I'm just going to throw it out there for me.
KIMBERLY
me. Yeah.
JORDEN
Yeah. Yeah. Kimberly, your international trips are better than domestic, but for everybody, domestic road trips. But then I also I like it on the environment, sorry, on the social and the economic indicators. So if we can get people kind of pushing out from that, you know, that New York trip, you save it off a couple million of those to small towns across America. That's an amazing economic impact for those towns, those regions. And if you do it with a few intentional decisions, it can be a lot better for the environment. So it's one of those areas where I see the potential for hope. Maybe that's how I'll leave it. I see potential, but I don't really have it at the moment.
KIMBERLY
And I think we're both agreed on take the train if you can, because it's awesome. If you enjoyed our episode of Sustainable Planet, or even if you didn't, let us know at splanetpod at gmail .com. We're also on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. You'll find these links on our show notes, along with additional resources from today's show, including my Substack post on our website at splanetpod .com. If you have the time, we'd really appreciate it if you'd rate and review us on your podcast app. Thanks for listening and have a sustainable day.
