From Bitter to Sweet: Sustainable Chocolate

Cocoa trees naturally promote environmental sustainability. However, without international support, farmers necessarily resort to less sustainable methods and labor exploitation. In the second segment of chocolate production, Jorden and Kimberly consider sustainability strategies and innovations for producers and, especially, for the manufacturers who have far greater means to effect change.

Key Topics Jorden and Kimberly discuss include:

• Why fair-trade cacao cooperatives are better for the environment and community

• How Ghana's Kuapa Kokoo 135,000-strong farmer’s cooperative inspires neighboring Cote d’Ivoire and Indonesia

• How intercropping increases cacao yields, supports biodiversity, and feeds the locals

• What MNCs can learn from small chocolate-makers about renewable energies

• Why 75% of a cacao pod is tossed, when it can be used, and what that would mean for farmers’ income

• Why producers get the blame when manufacturers are the less sustainable of the two

Recommended Resources

Key Topics Jorden and Kimberly discuss include:

• Why fair-trade cacao cooperatives are better for the environment and community

• How Ghana's Kuapa Kokoo 135,000-strong farmer’s cooperative inspires neighboring Cote d’Ivoire and Indonesia

• How intercropping increases cacao yields, supports biodiversity, and feeds the locals

• What MNCs can learn from small chocolate-makers about renewable energies

• Why 75% of a cacao pod is tossed, when it can be used, and what that would mean for farmers’ income

• Why producers get the blame when manufacturers are the less sustainable of the two

Recommended Resources

• Innovations in ⁠Grenada⁠ and ⁠Amsterdam⁠

• Biomass energy in ⁠Cote d’Ivoire⁠ and ⁠Uganda⁠

• Processing ⁠stats⁠ and ⁠water⁠ usage

• Cocoa ⁠growing⁠ and production alternatives, along with full sun ⁠cultivation⁠ developments

• Upcycling ⁠pods⁠ to reduce waste and increase farmer earnings

• For more stats, see resource links for the ⁠first⁠ segment

• Kimberly’s Substack ⁠newsletter post⁠

Kimberly’s list of widely-available ethically-sourced chocolate producers she can vouch for and their availability

• ⁠The Endangered Species Chocolate⁠- her go-to daily dose and widely available: Kroger, Walmart, Vitacost Target, Whole Foods, iHerb

• ⁠Blue Stripes⁠- Whole Foods; unique in that they upcycle to use most of the cacao pod; they now also make cereal, which is quite good

• ⁠Chocolove⁠- Kroger, Walmart, Vitacost, Walgreens

• ⁠Divine⁠- Walmart, Whole Foods, Vitacost; produced by the Kuapa Kokoo Cooperative in Ghana, they have an amazing story worth checking out, as well as their chocolate bars (the darks are the favorites, but the 70% Dark Mint Crisp is excellent)

• ⁠Justin’s⁠ and ⁠Unreal⁠ -for candy bar chocolates, both widely available

• ⁠Tcho⁠- Available in some natural foods and specialty stores, but buy direct for a discount on these premium chocolate bars that worth the price (highly recommend Dark & Salty, and though not dark chocolate, Perfect Matcha is quite good)

• For a wide variety of others, including Alter Eco (for a variety of fair trade products), Equal Exchange, and Theo, ⁠Slave Free Chocolate⁠ has a useful list

Episode Transcript

KIMBERLY

Welcome to this episode of Sustainable Planet. I'm political scientist, Kimberly Weir, and my co -host is Jordan Dye, a guy who knows an awful lot about sustainability issues.

JORDEN

It's great to be back, Kimberly. Last episode, we peeled back the wrapper on the darker side of chocolate, labor, land, and the long supply chain behind every bar. But today we're flipping the script. From solar -powered factories to chocolate made with zero waste, we're diving into the solutions and asking, can chocolate actually be part of a sustainable future? This is part two of our World Chocolate Day special. So, Kimberly, do you think chocolate can ever be a sustainable snack or is it doomed to stay a guilty pleasure?

KIMBERLY

Well, it sure sustains me. Anybody who's been listening, I swear I eat my weight in chocolate every year. Absolutely. There's no question that it can and actually should be a sustainable snack. Because as we talked about in part one, cocoa production is actually set up. I mean, what cocoa trees, what cacao trees demand is actually a much more sustainable environment just built in. And if people grew that way and people were encouraged to grow that way, there is no excuse for not producing sustainable beans. And the IGOs and the NGOs and the Harkin -Engle Protocol and the Multicadastical Corporations and the Cooperatives all have strategies that are pushing in this direction. Everybody recognizes we need to move in this direction. But the key is to get everybody fully on board with producing ethically sourced cacao beans from bar to bean, bean to bar. But the thing is, too, is that because of where the growing markets are, this also makes it challenging.

JORDEN

So it's still up in the air at the moment. Yeah.

KIMBERLY

Yeah. Well, it's definitely we're heading in that direction. There's no reason why any person who lives in a global north country or an emerging economy with buying power for that matter cannot enjoy a sustainable chocolate snack.

JORDEN

Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. And, you know, as I said in the first episode, I think this is one of the issues where because actually a large problem right now in the industry is being driven by climate change, I think it ties the sustainable challenges, like the sustainability challenges of the industry are tied a bit more to the future of the industry, right? Like you can't address the problems that climate change is driving right now with like the heat changes that we mentioned in West Africa and deforestation by continuing on an unsustainable path. So I think that that because it's so closely linked, it gives me some hope that it'll actually push towards some more sustainable practices because it's a crisis. And, you know, we often only see action during those kind of crisis moments.

KIMBERLY

Even if we could only get the three top major cacao producers in the world sorted out. and on board, right? So pushing for fair trade, ethically sourced cacao. If we could do that to promote sustainability for the whole industry, even this would be amazing because the Cote d 'Ivoire is by far the biggest cocoa bean producer in the world. They export over 2 million tons of beans a year. And just to put this in perspective, okay? 432 ,262 African elephants. Basically, the entire population of Africa is in Africa, right? Elephants in Africa. And it's astounding how much that country alone produces by comparison to the second, which is Ghana at 653 million tons or tons a year. And that is, the Cote d 'Ivoire produces 3 .75 times more than Ghana. In fact, it produces so many beans that it's more than the next five exporting countries collectively, Ghana, Indonesia, Ecuador, Brazil, and Cameroon. Yeah, given its production size, it lacks behind Ghana in terms of the number of cooperatives that it has and the number of people, farmers who belong to these. And so if we could just, I mean, okay, so even if we just get the Ivory Coast in a place where they alone are only producing ethically sourced cacao beans, That would be a huge coup for the industry.

JORDEN

No, and I think that kind of counteracts some of the... We talked about the fact that this is an industry so dispersed amongst small holding farmers. The fact that so much of that farm activity is concentrated in one country kind of gives us a place where you can... Because that's what I'm always looking for is what is the leverage point, right? And as you said, if you can do it in that, it is such a significant... part of the industry. Can you, you know, going back to our kind of talk in the last episode about greenwashing ramping up, can you imagine if every bar that came out of the Ivory Coast was just fair trade and every other country was now, it was like, wait, why aren't you? Because you'd be the smallest fraction of it would now be not fair trade chocolate.

KIMBERLY

And with Ghana's economic position and being more developed than Ivory Coast, having much more stable history. they certainly as a middle income income country would also like kind of fold those together right there. You've got a huge chunk. Indonesia is already an emerging economy. And so they already have a bunch of things in place that these other still developing countries don't. Bring them on board. That would be great to be able to do that too. But I think the key to success is cooperatives. I really am a firm believer of this because cooperatives combine what's going on at the grassroots local level with what's happening internationally. And they can, they are basically an intermediary umbrella, like just connector to everything that's going on. And so, as I mentioned in the last episode, I visited Kuapakoku in Ghana. It is by far the largest cooperative. About 135 ,000 cocoa farmers belong to this cooperative, and there are 43 of them that belong to this one big giant cooperative. And how it works is that instead of each of these farmers having to figure out who they're going to sell their beans to for the piece dealer who comes along, the trader who comes along to buy, they all basically sell their beans to the cooperative. Then that gives the cooperative a lot more international bargaining power because they're exporting a lot more tons of beans together. And so they then have better collective bargaining in terms of getting higher prices, the prices then that can go back to the farmers. And one thing that cooperatives do that are really important is that they bank money so that. It's not just whatever the fluctuating market price is that we'll give you this for the beans and then next year you're screwed because now there's a glut. But instead, they do it in such a way that they're going to have a consistent steady income over time. And when I was there, they talked, the cooperative talked about how they had so many farmers waiting to join their cooperative because everybody just saw. the value of this. And there are an estimated 565 ,000 smallholder cocoa farmers in Ghana, like people who want to get on board with this. And I mean, given the size of Ghana's production versus Cote d 'Ivoire, I mean, there's the biggest one that I found in Cote d 'Ivoire is called Eco Kim. It's an umbrella cooperative that works with 32 small cooperatives and about 37 ,000 farmers. But when you look at the production size of Ivory Coast, it's like, wow, the fact that Ghana has got so many people part of this cooperative, and it's such a really good thing, is both reflective of the fact that the country is better economically positioned and has been more stable, but also that you see this foundation laid and more people want to get involved and it just... brings more and more in. And they were in a very lucky position in that they had international sponsorship, basically shares holders from the UK, and then got them started. And so I think that that you knew that that's what I was saying that that international connection. So now what that and other cooperatives can do, there's also a large one in Indonesia called Kerta Samaya. or KSS, a cooperative, it's much smaller, but also they've only been growing in the last like two decades or so. So production is just skyrocketing overnight. They have only about 600 cocoa farmers in, but that number is really dated because that was from 2017. So they have more, I mean, I'm sure it's bigger than that now, but it would be fantastic because there's so many advantages to joining a cooperative.

JORDEN

No, and I think it's a, method of aggregating farmer power that we've seen around the world. I think it's really great to hear that the cooperative in Ghana is roughly a fifth of all cocoa producers. Sorry, 100 and some odd thousand, I believe you said, out of roughly 500 ,000 producers. And that they have a wait list. I think that that... the fact that they're they're waiting on it shows the demand right that this is is being shown to be a profitable way of doing it and i really like you said it has benefits for both the farmers and then actually like even just as the country level too like the farmers are getting stable income the farmers are able to to kind of pool the and share the risk actually you know citing another episode we talked about how in the us you still see farm cooperators amongst the largest egg producers right like this is not something that doesn't align with even like the large, large farming businesses down to the smaller ones. And I think that's exciting. I wonder. Yeah, I think that highlighting the difference in the stability of the Ivory Coast to Ghana is really important for seeing how this can emerge. Right. And I wonder how. I wonder if you almost need the stability first to build it or if like actually getting more and more farmers across the Ivory Coast into this could actually help lead to stability like through the reverse way because you're actually are providing that economic foundation across so many communities.

KIMBERLY

Cocoa beans were actually considered a, I forget what you call it, like blood diamonds, like a conflict good at the time that the coup happened in 2012 because. They were using basically, and not surprisingly so for how big the industry is, using that to fund the coup. And then that collapsed and then it's war for a bit. But it's been restabilized. And it does seem like there's a lot of growth that's been happening there. And even in light of bad, bad other international factors that have dampened economic growth. But one of the things, too, I think about cooperatives that impressed me, I've visited a number of fair trade cooperatives. is money reinvested back into the local community. That's something that's a big draw for it because they provide schools and teachers and the thing is not just, we'll just build you a school, but actually like make the schools run. And that's really important. A lot of times, I know the places I visited, it was a requirement for the kids to go to school, but it was also an incentive for the families to want to join because they knew their kids had a potentially a better opportunity. from being in school and they worked with the harvest schedules of whatever the the cooperative was involved in also like medical care lots of maternity clinics because there are a lot of younger women who are pregnant and babies being born in these places these are a lot of countries where their the population growth still hasn't even maxed out yet and daycare centers and infrastructure, things like we totally take for granted, like, oh, we have a car. So if a bridge is out, we drive to the next bridge. Well, these are people who a bridge means walking extra miles just to get where they're going. And so putting in bridges, supplying malaria nets, water supplies. I've been visited places where they actually put in like toilets, public toilets. Again, things we just totally take for granted, public toilets and clean drinking water in places that would just suffer droughts, you know, dry seasons that are go. lasting longer and longer now.

JORDEN

And I think the other really cool thing about collectives is it solves for the problem of a diffuse producing base. So like when we talk about some of the really innovative techniques that are being added, or as we talked about a lot in the last episode, shade cropping, it's really hard getting 5 million individual farmers to do that and to provide the education for their region, the type of plants, how to do it, show the benefits. But a cooperative can actually roll that out a lot easier by providing, taking the learnings, providing the kind of resources, and then over time actually requiring it for all producers within the cooperative. So I think that's a really, it gets past that problem of a diffuse industry by kind of in the same way as they have market power towards manufacturers and selling the goods, they actually have market power with those farmers to roll out better practices.

KIMBERLY

And taking that one step further. it makes it a lot easier for them to coordinate with international organizations, IGOs, NGOs, whomever. Even a lot of the one route that the corporations love is, oh, we're going to sponsor this one cooperative or farm or whatever, right? For, oh, look what we're doing page on their website. But that still makes it easier if they can go directly through that intermediary between the actual farmer on the very ground and then having the cooperative there. That makes it a lot easier to diffuse that technological expertise or new seed varieties or whatever it is in a way that trying to reach individual shareholders when you're talking about so many, 90 % of all of the farmers, right, who are producing cocoa beans in the world. That's that's a big difference.

JORDEN

Yeah. So, you know, turn to some of those innovations that we're seeing on the producer level. I did love this example that you threw in here of the solar powered chocolate making. I think anywhere we can get renewable energy going into. But like I kind of went down a rabbit hole on because at first I was thinking to the kind of production of chocolate and I was like, where are they needing so much energy on the producer level? But then getting into some of the drying practices, really. And actually, as you mentioned, when you're doing it in the still very traditional way, you're really dependent on the kind of climate around you and getting that perfect drying temperature. And then for areas that have moved towards more industrial drying practices, you see fossil fuel really used in that. So I thought that was a really interesting way that could both provide, again, greater revenue certainty if you're producing in a way that you're not reliant. on the humidity level outside, but also how as you're building this out, it can be built out in a sustainable way from the get go rather than having to retroactively replace a bunch of fossil fuel infrastructure.

KIMBERLY

Well, and also, as we've talked about in other episodes. Waste also happens in storage and waiting to be taken to market. And that's another big thing where having climate control is important if you can afford it and where solar and even wind power chocolate making. And also for every step, I mean, everything sort of gets conflated under chocolate making, but we're talking about there are so many steps involved in this. And this is big news in cocoa producing circles, like from Ecuador to Madagascar, Ghana to Australia, that there's like the tiny one in Grenada. Again, I mentioned in the last episode that Grenada was one of those places that ended up getting a lot of other products from places. taken to them that weren't indigenous to them that they grown out nutmeg is the big example but also cocoa and cacao and so the granada chocolate company in granada is i've heard it both ways is a huge and it's well funded But it's tiny, right? But then you see chocolate makers, which is the state of the art venture that's in Amsterdam. And they're attempting to make like cocoa bean processing much greener. So they estimate that because they are totally solar powered, that they are saving 3 ,500 kilograms of carbon dioxide outputs every year by getting 100 % of their power from solar. And that's huge, right? So these are big promising avenues. And like I said, there are a lot. You do a search for this and they come up all over the place. So that's, I think, very hopeful in terms of dealing with the energy consumption at that end, especially because processing also, not even just that once you get to the part where you have to grind and

KIMBERLY

temper and all of the things that go into making the actual bars themselves that's also a labor -intensive process or a tech I mean nowadays it's a if you're not doing it by hand I actually did it by hand except for the tempering which is just too many hours to do if you're just trying to do it but I took a I took a chocolate making course when I was in Peru and and did this And it is, we did everything like from actually roasting and shelling the beans to grinding them by hand. And then, and the old way that they did it with a mortar and pestle. And then the tempering happened on it. Plus it's also really difficult because the temperature and everything has to be exactly right or you just get bad. And it also takes too long. And then actually the finishing part of it. And so I highly recommend that to anybody who happens to be in Cusco, Peru. and loves chocolate also because you get to eat chocolate the entire time you're doing it and you get to make chocolate that you take with you and it's all fair trade ethically sourced and grown right there it's awesome so it is like the least guilty pleasure you could you could have right absolutely yes and so and there are other places like that i visited sometimes they are not the ones who actually grow the beans themselves but import ethically sourced beans and we'll do all of that everything also from beginning to end and you can take a course it was just in

JORDEN

it is like the least guilty pleasure you could you could have right absolutely

KIMBERLY

yes and so and there are other places like that i visited sometimes they are not the ones who actually grow the beans themselves but import ethically sourced beans and we'll do all of that everything also from beginning to end and you can take a course it was just in In Chamonix in France, where there is a place right there that did it right there on site, made their own chocolate right there. And, you know, like it doesn't get much better than that. And they got beans. They got beans from all over in the world. Oh, my gosh. Some of the beans. Oh, like, you know, the single source, like how some people are like malt whiskey and or into like whatever tobacco or whatever. I am like chocolate is like, oh, chocolate connoisseur for sure.

JORDEN

I am

JORDEN

Yeah. My only experience with the machinery of it is actually when I was working at. a vegan a food manufacturer we did a lot of snacks and we had to make a vegan cheese line and the only thing that we could find that would mill the cashews to the right consistency that we wanted was actually like the like stone slab on stone slab chocolate grinder so we ended up ordering this like forty thousand dollar chocolate grinder from china and it just shows up one day it was giant and the amount of chocolate that this thing was designed to make and it was their smallest size So I can only imagine how excited you would have been to see just the amount that can go through this thing.

KIMBERLY

And that I can eat in return.

JORDEN

So it was a thing. Sorry, excuse me. When we're thinking about kind of anything else that the producer can do, is there any other innovations that really stand out and how they can kind of reduce their impact?

KIMBERLY

Well, I think. The biggest one, there are a few, the biggest one certainly is intercropping, right? Polycropping is so important. And this is something that cooperatives absolutely support. And any venture, I don't know, venture is not the word. Any support for a small farm holder or cooperative from an intern, IGO or NGO or corporation for direct trade is going to support this and push for intercropping I think you mentioned all of these, actually many of these in the first episode that it increases the yield of the cacao, right? But it also decreases the need for the inputs that I think you also mentioned. Just go back and listen to the other episode, people. No, I'm just kidding. And, but also, you know, so you need fewer, like fewer pests, increases, decreases the potential for disease, increases the soil quality, decreases soil erosion, it sequesters the CO2. But also one of the things that's important is that these other crops are also useful. So they grow bananas and citrus trees and avocados and pineapples, which are so cool to see grow. Cassava, which could grow anywhere under any condition, I swear. And it's like the most amazing plant and just feeds people like all over the world as a staple crop that most people don't even know about. Tarot root and tarot leaves are both edible. So cool. coconut trees, plantains, mangoes, you name it, like all of these things you can grow. So that gives these farmers also crops during other times of the year. It gives them also sustenance as well. It gives them local, it helps the local food supply because not everybody who's living in these places are farmers growing the same things or even have the means to own a farm. And it gives them additional income and so forth. And so like all of these are really great things, too. So I think that's one of the most important. Did you have others? Because I still have two more.

JORDEN

Well, I want to touch on that a little bit, too, because I think that like, as we mentioned last time, this is not no matter what, it's not forestry, like an actual like building out a forest. But I think even getting. Anything that any step we can take to get closer to a natural environment is better. And like you mentioned a lot of like the human kind of things there, but also, you know, for for wildlife in the area, for for pests, for insects in the area. I think all of these are great benefits. And we've also seen, I think I think we can say we've seen enough evidence from areas around the globe now where you start putting in more of a forest like canopy, basically thinking of your your forest agricultural as trying to mimic the different levels of it. It produces a better microbiome and climate for the. for the actual farmer. So not only do you see those benefits in the first years, actually, as you build this out, as it becomes entrenched, you actually get better and better crop production. So I think it's like a reinforcing cycle. And to the point, it's really just getting people to understand and see the benefits, right? And not just as another cost. And again, it's another area where I think cooperatives can really dive into it. Maybe I'll start us off on the next one. I thought that actually one of the coolest things in this conversation was the upcycling of waste. And the way that this doesn't just have to stop once you're done kind of taking the beans out and harvesting what you can. We're going to talk about in the manufacturing side how that can be used actually in the production. But I think you had a great example here of actually generating electricity and energy from the husks and the bean shells and how much that could be used as a local energy source for these communities.

KIMBERLY

There are projects that are, this is the thing, these are. more expensive, pricier projects because they are sort of national scale projects. But the biomass energy production that could come from discarded cocoa beans and pods. Now, the thing is, is that there's also the upcycling of actually using the whole pod, which is amazing. And if we could do that, that would be ideal route to go. But if we're going to right now, we're not at the point where enough companies are buying the whole pod. And so. For the Ivory Coast, there is a project that in talking about the data, if they collect 400 ,000 tons of waste a year, the power plant would fire up in and run a whole entire clean energy grid all year long. And they have so many tons of unused coconut shell waste. or coconuts and probably that too, cocoa pod waste that's right now not being used for anything. And so, and Uganda also has a project either much smaller scale production, but still, I mean, these are countries that could really use some electricity that's not coming from fossil fuel sources. But the upcycling of the pods is the first time I came across this was there's a company and it sold, I got it at, I came across it at Whole Foods. It's called Blue Stripes. And they are chocolates here. And they actually use almost the entire pod. 93 % of the pod can actually be eaten. And it's so cool because the first time I saw this, when you get the ripe pod, you crack it open. And it's like the beans are in this sort of gelatinous, white substance and it tastes like tropical fruit and people there will actually use that pulp and drink it they'll make it into sweet drinks but most of the time it's just discarded the beans are separated out the beans are fermented and the pods yes so that I was trying to get that clear in the last episode, you separate them out, you ferment the beans under banana leaves or other palm leaves, whatever. And then they separate the pods. And then a lot of places that are sustainable or biodynamic farms will actually use those pods just then for fertilizer, which is also a great use for it too. For those where it's happening and if where the pods are just sold whole and the processing is happening at a factory, that's not going to happen. And so not likely, not as likely to happen. The infrastructure is just not really set up to go the opposite direction of where stuff is coming from to go back, I think. And so Blue Stripes is really cool in that they pay the farmers for the whole pod and they're able to use 93 % of that. And that just returning what would be waste to the farmers earns them an additional $850 a year. which is a huge amount for these farmers who get whatever the going rate is for...

JORDEN

Well, so I did the as we were on break recording. So last episode, we talked a bit about the one hundred and forty billion dollar industry divided by the farmers. I did it out. And so this is going to be just an average, obviously, but it would be about sixteen hundred dollars USD per year average to a farmer. So being able to go another eight fifty on top of that is all is a 50 percent increase in their revenue. Right. With those numbers.

KIMBERLY

Yeah. And this is a bit higher because these are. blue stripes and others that play actually pay fair market price rather than just whatever the international futures market is like this is really good though so especially if you're somebody who's not and you're getting suddenly somebody says oh we'll buy your whole pod for you right there even if it's not fair trade right there you're going to get a lot more than what you would otherwise and so blue stripes says that this is the equivalent of the 75 of the cocoa pod that's actually tossed The equivalent of, and I liked this because it was close to your Statue of Liberty, but it was the Empire State Building. 30 Empire State Buildings every year worth of pods are discarded that could be used in other pod biddies we'll talk about that go along with that. And so that has the potential of generating 450, 4 ,500 kilograms daily. that could power 200 ,000 homes just using those husk pods alone and the bean shells. And so that is a lot, right? That's a lot of potential energy usage saved that could be put toward that or you could just eat it, which is even better because they taste. These bars are really good too. It's not like they're using basically the sugars in them to use their own sugars to sweeten it, which is amazing.

JORDEN

So I did look at this a little bit. And now for the person who likes a little more sugar, I will I will say that there's some caveats here. And, you know, Kimberly gave it away last episode. She loves the dark chocolate because so what I found is researchers to talk about you make a pulp husk gel that replaces the sugar going into the chocolate. Overall, it seemed the consensus was that it makes an amazing dark chocolate because it doesn't get as sweet. You can't fine tune it as well, but it actually adds in as you. as you mentioned, more of a bright, acidic and fruity kind of notes to the chocolate. So I think that a little like the research I was looking at was saying it's a little bit of trade off on the sweetness, but a more rich and robust flavor, not more of a bitter flavor. And I think that's the the important thing there. But when looking at the sustainability results, I did want to say this would rely, at least from what I could find on it being powered by renewable energy, because just making the switch over from sugar to to pulp, and husk gel it basically is a six percent less land and water needed on a comparable basis for one bar of chocolate but the researchers found 12 more energy is required because you're adding another processing step so i think that like again if you can do that with renewable energy you've now got a massive impact and as you point you pointed out you're not making another waste product you're going back to our circular economy episode you're seeing how can we from the very start use more of this going into it and then again even if assuming that the entire industry doesn't go that way because we want some sweet chocolate as well as you mentioned that's a lot of energy that can be used for biomass energy generation and as we've talked about another episode there's great ways that you can reduce the environmental impact of that So I think this is kind of as we're talking through this, imagining this kind of like sustainable and economic renaissance on the back of chocolate in Ghana, because I can see it rolling out there the easiest. And you can imagine, you know, power plants across the because when you go to the polycropping method, too, it's not only the the cocoa beans and the cocoa plants that would have. biomass right you now have it coming from multiple sources so you can i don't know i almost see like a collective driven energy production renaissance with cocoa i think that's really cool well i think i just want to mention to your point to being bitter where the bitterness comes from is when they skimp on the amount of cocoa butter in in the chocolate and so lesser

KIMBERLY

i think i just want to mention to your point to being bitter where the bitterness comes from is when they skimp on the amount of cocoa butter in in the chocolate and so lesser quality brands will do that and so the darker it gets then the sort of more bitter it may taste but that's not that just means they need to put more cocoa butter back in to to even that i've i learned that going to a cocoa a chocolate maker actually in cincinnati is the one who first mentioned that to me i love that not letting those chocolate makers pull the wool over our eyes that's them skimping out

JORDEN

love that not letting those chocolate makers pull the wool over our eyes that's them skimping out

KIMBERLY

Yeah. And that's, I mean, another thing you think about the fact that cocoa butter is an entire industry on and of itself, right? That's, that's not even, we're not even talking about chocolate. We're talking about a by -product of chocolate bean and, or the cocoa bean, cacao bean. And so one of my favorite things to make that I do with chocolate is it,

JORDEN

one of my favorite things to make that I do with chocolate is it, and I, it's not really chocolate because white chocolate is not chocolate to, for, for most people who might not know, it is just cocoa butter with some sugar, but I make a caramelized white chocolate. which is a lot of baking off white chocolate and cocoa butter and getting it and keeping it at the right temperature. So it just slowly becomes this light, like, oh, golden brown and the Mallard reaction. It was one of my favorite things is that and then repouring that into chocolate bars. So I have to get that for you sometime.

KIMBERLY

You can imagine that someone who loves dark chocolate, the white chocolate is not my favorite thing, but I did actually, it's very difficult to find vegan white chocolate. And I had a recipe I wanted to use. to make using white chocolate. And also Michael loves white chocolate. And I mentioned Cho chocolate out of San Francisco makes Carl the nog at Christmas time. And also they make one that's spiced pumpkin and it's the white chocolate is the base for both of those. And so I thought I would, you know, give it this was for, I love cranberries too. And so I thought I would do this white cranberry muffin mix try. So I had to, but I had to make the white chocolate. I had to make the white chocolate chips to be able to do this, right? So I was able to finally get some white chocolate pellets,

KIMBERLY

discs, which are hard to find those too as well, vegan, right? And so I was able to do that. And I did the same thing, except mine was not nearly as good. I needed to mix it a lot more, but it actually was for somebody who's not like, yeah, it was different. But cocoa butter is also really good too.

JORDEN

Oh, it is amazing. I I probably unsurprisingly, it's funny when I was a kid, I loved white chocolate more. It was my it was my go to. But I actually like dark chocolate. I'm with you. I think it is the best of the chocolate options. And it's also the best of the chocolate options from a carbon emission standpoint, which, you know, listeners know that's the one I'm always worried about. So I. just the disparity between dark chocolates emissions and like chocolate kind of bars that you might get, I think would shock people from 1 .6 kilograms of CO2 per kilogram of dark chocolate all the way up to 6 .7 kilograms per kilogram of chocolate like bars and confections. I. I am cringing as I'm saying these numbers because I'm feeling a lot of guilt for any time I've grabbed that Mars bar versus having some dark chocolate. I think it's rare to see such a large disparity in a product. Most people would think is I would almost just say interchangeable. Then I realized I'm on with somebody who loves chocolate and maybe would dispute that a dark chocolate bar and a Mars bar interchangeable.

KIMBERLY

Same thing. You're talking about two entirely different species.

JORDEN

Yeah, but but such a wide gap between the two kind of. The varieties is just amazing.

KIMBERLY

I think that this is a good point you've raised because when we talk about the manufacturing and so much attention, absolutely so much attention and just researching chocolate. gets, it's on what can the producers do? What are the producers doing wrong? Where are they going wrong? And there's so little attention and responsibility, accountability that goes on the manufacturers who have so much more money. They have such deeper pockets. They have so much more leverage. And with the Harkin -Engle protocol, they're forced, they're being forced to the extent that anything can be enforced to coordinate so it's not even like her she says oh we can't compete as well because nestle you know they're they're cheating the system and we have to abide by this all no if everybody plays by the same rules nobody is getting short changed and it's just who likes your product better and who's you know better marketing and strategy and all those things as opposed to you're buying your beans cheaper so you can sell your bars cheaper yeah no it's

JORDEN

no it's preventing that undercutting right of going to the the worst possible lowest cost sources is such an important part in anything like this because if you could let one company circumvent that it creates that race to the bottom and pushes it which again is just i keep coming back to the fact that doing this better is actually better for the profits of everybody along the chain is better for the environment is better for us as consumers And we'll reduce the impact that'll drive us to lose chocolate. I think it's like a horrible cycle, right? It is like the worst you make chocolate, the more it's contributing to not being able to make chocolate. Like I, I think this is one of those times where it's like, okay, even if I don't, can't get you to care about the environment, I can get you to care about chocolate, right? Like.

KIMBERLY

Yeah. And that's the thing with, that goes along with that too, is the packaging. And that's the reason why I think that to dart, like. like actual chocolate, even if it's not dark, even if it's just, but if it's, you know, something that's an actual chocolate bar, the packaging tends to be in bar form. They call it plaque form tablets as opposed to individually wrapped candy bars. And so there's a lot more packaging. I saw a study that was done with the UK and just the amount of emissions and various other things, but emissions was the big one in pre -wrapped individual for in confections as opposed to buying things in the tablet form. And so when you're talking about the three ounce bar, that's a big difference in terms of the number of individual wrappers as opposed to if you're eating Hershey Kisses. And so that was one thing. And also along those same lines, I think that where the beans are processed makes a difference too.

KIMBERLY

beans are processed makes a difference too. Because as we talked about, if you could actually do that processing, in country, that would save a lot. First of all, that's where the farms are. So all of the, you could upcycle all of those things. You could even use that for the biomass or, you know, solar, they've got solar. I mean, there's no question they've got solar in the, on the, right. So, so you've got all of the things that are there necessary, so much more efficient for process,

JORDEN

right. So,

KIMBERLY

you've got all of the things that are there necessary, so much more efficient for process, just processing the beans, even if it's not about the, you know, like, okay, roasting. And I don't know, maybe if you're picky about roasting, okay. But once you get past that, you know, you can do everything you really need to do where all of the materials and resources are already, as opposed to sending them to Europe to have them done or the United States to have this done. But this goes along with what happened with colonialism and the colonizers wanting to maintain control of the machinery and the intellectual. property and the knowledge of these things and just we want your raw materials and that's the beginning and end of it.

JORDEN

No, it's definitely a mentality that sets in in countries. I mean, just to take it even out of the Global South context, we see it in Canada. Like, you know, it's always been a resource extraction country. And I always joke that we've always been a colony, first of the British and then of America. And that's just where your resources go. And you don't keep that upgrading, that value added in the country. And then and you're right. And it comes out of that that kind of the colonial setup of who controlled the access to that resource, no matter where it was. And but I think this is another area, too, though, where that the incentives could line up the right way, because, as you mentioned, you can basically like without effect and quality. And I'm using air quotes here because I think a lot of those arguments sometimes are, you know. misused to just not do something but you can take the entire process up to the fermented beans right before we're going to roast them to do the quality control and do that all within country that actually saves money right a because if you can at the cooperative level aggregate that process so you're processing a larger amount that drives the per unit cost of processing down but you're also not paying european wages for it so i think that there's incentives for the company because they're paying less ultimately but also incentives for the farmers in the country level because you're keeping more of that value added you know you cited five to six percent of that value staying with like the farmers If you can push that up, even a couple, like two, three percent, that's a lot of millions and millions of dollars staying within those communities in that country. And I think that's an exciting because usually you see those at cross purposes, right? Giving more money to the farmers and moving it down takes it away from someone else. But if you're also reducing a cost, that's almost from the company's perspective, free money, right?

KIMBERLY

It's the same with water usage, too. Not just energy usage, but water usage. I mean, these are much more water rich areas just to begin with. So dark chocolate requires less water for content processing than, I mean, it just makes sense. It's less processed, right? Than a kilo of anything, you know, the lower the number goes. But that's something that could also then be factored in. But the thing is that we end up catering to demand, right? And what are consumer preferences? Well, short of pushing, putting pressure, what incentives do consumers have to put pressures on corporations when, you know, like, oh, well, we're getting chocolate bars and they're like a dollar each and like, we love it. And we're not thinking about the fact that it doesn't say, you know, 27 slave labor children and five adults were forced to make this chocolate bar for your enjoyment.

JORDEN

Yeah. Or one Olympic swimming pool. Yeah. Right. And so, I mean, kind of reflecting back on this today, though, I think that when I'm looking at chocolate going forward, this might be an easier one for me because I eat so little chocolate. I can be, you know, we often talk about what one you care about most. Go put effort into that. But as we've gone through the episode, I think I have like a three part list of if I eat chocolate, there's almost three steps you can take. The first one is bars over snack size. Just just eliminate those snack size. And as listeners will know, that might be a change of my road trip habits, but we can do it easy. Second one is go darker. It's going to be better. And then third one is that doesn't say fair trade. And I mean, you know, at the end of the last episode, I think you gave me five, six examples here. So certainly no shortage of consumer options. But it sounds like, would you agree, if we're kind of doing those three steps as your first pass of your chocolate buying habits, you're going to be pushing for kind of a better... I would push for fair trade first.

KIMBERLY

I would push for fair trade first.

JORDEN

Sorry, fair trade first. Fair trade first,

KIMBERLY

Fair trade first, always. Like I said, even if it's the minimally met requirements for something that constitutes fair trade, still better off for the planet and people on the planet. I think that that's one of the things with sustainability that a lot of times people get left out of that equation. And so this was something that would help. And that's the thing is you can't leave people out of the equation because people are the ones who are most affected by climate change. And if they're still struggling to meet their needs and you're just doing something that's undermining even more, then nothing's going to change. And so I think that's the most important thing. And I think, OK, so I'm not going to force people to change their chocolate taste, although I will argue that the darker it is, the better it is for your health. And if you're all the stuff in your body, you don't need like excess sugar and palm oils and so forth. So there's that. And definitely the packaging waste. And as we talked about just eliminating the pot, like the whole, if you can do something more with the pod, it's a huge amount of like food waste right there, potential food waste that's eliminated. And also where the processing happens. If the processing is happening in country, it's not sitting in a storehouse needing energy for climate control to be exported. So that, you know, that's wasted energy too. And so I saw statistics for the global warming potential could be reduced by 14 to 19 % through changing packaging and cocoa content alone. Right there, if you just change those few things. And I have seen very few, but I got, chocolate bar. I don't remember the company that was in Amsterdam and their wrapper was actually completely 100 % plant -based recyclable compostable wrapper, which was really good. And that's something too, that eliminates the waste from, you know, they could make individual ones and that's not nearly as bad if it's, you know, throw it in the compost because it will truly compost, not just like a, oh, well, it's got these other things and we pretend that you can compost it, but it has to be like, this degree under these conditions for this amount of time yep you know this is a a i don't think 14 to 20 or 19 sorry impact from just two things that we should not be understated how big that is right like like that's not nothing no but the other thing i was thinking about as we're as you kind of were going through the the list of issues and ways that we can address it there

JORDEN

know this is a a i don't think 14 to 20 or 19 sorry impact from just two things that we should not be understated how big that is right like like that's not nothing

KIMBERLY

not nothing no

JORDEN

but the other thing i was thinking about as we're as you kind of were going through the the list of issues and ways that we can address it there Chocolates, I don't want to say a weird one, but so much of the sustainability issues you and I've talked about over the last year kind of flow through and touch on in the chocolate issue, right? From, you know, circular economy there in using more of the material at the start and all the way down to packaging design so it can be compostable and go back in to palm oil. And the episode we did on the problems there, deforestation. As you mentioned, the problems at the community level and, you know, sustenance farming, this is just interesting how something that, you know, you kind of take for granted almost being in your local corner store or down in the cupboard hits on so many topics across sustainability.

KIMBERLY

And also what we talked about with degrowth as well, that not pushing for degrowth per se, but pushing for having more economic opportunities in the places that actually need them and more consumer goods in places that need them. And this is something that would certainly help because you have producers who have more buying power, which then make them better consumers. And so that's where the growth needs to happen. Why not invest in this? But, you know, Nestle doesn't want to trade off its money to help, you know, put processing plants. And I shouldn't say I blame Nestle, but the companies and there are companies who have moved more processing plants to. Ivory Coast, especially because they just produce so much cocoa. And so because of that, there are some that are moving more in that direction just because out of the sustainability necessity for sustainability, if they want to claim. that they're more sustainable. And here's, these are actually easy things that those companies can do that would make them more sustainable straight away than having to figure out other creative marketing plans or strategies, other, other, you know, whatever manufacturing strategies to become greener.

JORDEN

Yeah, no. And as you said, it's easy for them and there's a lot of benefit to the consumer, sorry, to the country and the farmers for doing it. I think that's, It's encouraging. It's funny. We started out this episode, at least I did, coming into it. And while I had some hope around the cooperatives, as I said in the first episode, that's kind of where my hope was. I think overall, I'm feeling more hopeful that we'll do something about this issue quicker than I was, I think, when I came into the episode. How do you feel?

KIMBERLY

I hope that... people listened to this one and we didn't completely disenfranchise them after the last one when we were big downers by the end. But yeah, this is why I'm kind of torn on this one because there are so many things that are happening and so much potential for improvement that it wouldn't be that big of a deal to change. And in fact, there are so many pros for making these changes, but then... I look at the other side of it, which is there still needs to be funding, there still needs to be technological support, there still needs to be a commitment by the producers, the manufacturers to make these changes. And so that that's the part of me that I the idealist Kimberly is like, yeah, this is so awesome. And then the, you know, the person, the part of me that's like recognizes, wow, the word real, how the world really works, knows that. it's a lot more difficult, but at the same time, it's something that I still think we've seen progress. And so it's, we don't think we should just write it off. I think it will take, like most of these things will take a lot longer and should happens. It would be so many benefits if this would happen much faster than it will. Yeah,

JORDEN

no, but I think this is also an area where human nature can help us. I think that people like to feel morally good generally, right?

KIMBERLY

Halo effect.

JORDEN

Yeah. And if you can... I honestly like it's one of those areas where it's like, OK, so you eat one less chocolate bar a week. Like you have instead of having two, you have one and you. What? You can see the look on Kimberly's face when I say that.

KIMBERLY

that. It's inconceivable.

JORDEN

But for those of us not eating sustainable chocolate, I'm just like I could imagine an easy shift of like I'm eating chocolate, not thinking about it, feeling guilty to. I have once a week treat that's helping the planet, helping farmers and feeling better about myself. Even better,

KIMBERLY

just like I could

KIMBERLY

Even better, eat one sustainably sourced candy bar. Yeah. Because they're out there too. Okay, so as a dark chocolate snob, I didn't name off any of those candy companies like Jacobs that produces basically fair trade,

JORDEN

Because they're

KIMBERLY

companies like Jacobs that produces basically fair trade, ethically sourced peanut butter cups. And so there are plenty of others. I don't eat these things. But there are sustainable fair trade. candy companies that are out there who do make the equivalent of every name brand candy bar that's out there. And I regret that I didn't look that up beforehand because I don't know the name off the top of my head, but they're out there and they're not ridiculously expensive. So trade out your fill in the blank mass produced one for one of these companies. Instead, that's an even better trade up.

JORDEN

I love it. And audience, I'm going to push Kimberly to get us a few of those candy options in her Substack post for this one for, you know, no reason. But I think that where better can we end it on than, you know, feel good with the planet and have a sustainable snack.

KIMBERLY

And actually, you know, it's time for me to get some more chocolate in me. So it's probably a good time to close. If you enjoyed our episode of Sustainable Planet, or even if you didn't, let us know at splanetpod at gmail .com. We're on Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube. You'll find us on our show notes and everything you could possibly want to know. And I'll put the link in there for other companies that are not snobby, just bar makers at splanetpod .com. You can read more on my next Substack post. We'd appreciate it if you'd rate and review us for us to help us out. Thanks for listening and have a sustainable day.